I just heard about a women being raped b…

I just heard about a women being raped by another AA member. He’s in Jail. Im disgusted! Im so sick of this. AA as a whole needs stop Predators in the meetings. They need to know that we are not happy hunting grounds for sexual predators anymore!


15 thoughts on “I just heard about a women being raped b…

  1. Or perhaps even consensual sex in a disease recovery venue is sexual harassment or statutory rape. If this is the case, an announcement should be made from the podium at the start of the meeting.

    How about this:


    California Penal Code Section 243.4 states that

    Any person who touches an intimate part of another person who
    is institutionalized for medical treatment and who is seriously
    disabled or medically incapacitated may be guilty of sexual harassment which is punishable in The State of California by prison time and or fines.


  2. its just an opposing view piont, not a personal attack…

    Women and men should also be offered alternatives to AA instead of being told that AA is the only thing that works and the alternative is jails, institutions, and death. But, that’s not as much fun as a witch hunt that empowers women with hot topic political correctness. Granted, I know about all the hit and run suitors in AA that have consensual sex with new girls that want it; on the other hand, I hear very little about rape or other crimes. I’ll bet this whole thing started from some woman falling for the AA rhetoric, going to bed, and then getting dropped. Don’t waste you energy on this crap, find another way to stay sober, go to school, and do something positive and real. AA just flat out sucks past that initial sobriety. Watch out, AA attendance can dangerously modify your belief system, this is its cult characteristic.


    1. That’s the plan. Women are beginning to talk about rape and we thing there needs to be a warning read at the beginning of every meeting stating that people should beware that AA is not Safe. This is a daunting task which is why something needs to be posted on all websites (Including NY aa.org and all local area websites. it would be warning people that AA is NOT safe. And from the stories we’re hearing it is Clearly we are hearing lot’s of horror stories way beyond 13 stepping!

      So, if they, or we did that … what is that saying about our fellowship?

      Imagine the Catholic Church telling new parents who will be sending their kids ( little ones to their schools) that their kids might be molested by a priest. That there 11 year old might get tied up and molested by an already known sex offender. That the pope knew about him because his head Bishop in Oakland was writing to Rome about him!!!and did nothing for 4 years. The Pope that they want to make A Saint! Not good PR I would say.

      So we hear all about it in the press and it’s all over the NPR radio. All over the Los Angeles Times. As it should be.

      So it’s alot like this in AA but we have this Anonymous thing that’s is like a secret society and or cult that we can hide under the radar and do whatever we want. oh we’re so specal. I don’t think so!!!

      Awareness. Talking about it opening in all meetings. Making Announcements in every meeting we go to.

      We feel literature needs to handed to all newcomers warning them. I understand all the other stuff you are saying too. The Culty crap needs to be addressed.
      I agree. AA is not the only way. Some of us think it’s time for something new and different from AA. The culty crap going on in the Young peoples group is ridiculous.

      People have been raped. People are going to the police. We are not talking about the two, thirty year olds who are attracted to each other go to bed and find out they don’t even know how they feel yet.
      My belief system in not that of Bill’s.

      The Big Book was written was he was 5 years sober. He took LSD when he was 18 years sober. So in my book he wasn’t sober anymore.
      He was severely depressed in his teen years of sobriety. No one else received royalties from the big book except him, Lois and his mistress.
      Even though we hear how the first 100 wrote the book. So, the basic 6 steps form The Oxford movement were really all that was needed. But they also were kinda nutty!

      Hey it’s 2010…We think something new might be great But in the meantime I can’t walk away from the crap I am seeing and hearing from good sober people. Who are not culty , not crazy , but got sober from Alcoholism and now live a great life without drinking.

      Like the song FUNKY TOWN says…Talk about it, talk about it, talk about it talk about it!!!

      Make changes. DO something. We are going to affect change. It is desperately needed.

      And I am not alone. Hundreds of others feel this way.


      1. I have to agree with you. AA is less safe than other meeting places such as bars, the work place, etc. AA’s tradition implies that those participating adhere to high principals thus relaxing new people who would normally be “on guard”. I also notice that new members experience a dangerously inexperienced openness from the ideals of rigorous honesty, the love bomb, open mindedness, and willingness. So many bad decisions can be made under the “let go and let god” or “turn it over” mindsets. I recall making a very bad business decision while embracing my new sobriety. I also remember a counselor who wanted to have sex with my wife trying to get me to leave her to “stay sober”.

        I still think the answer would be to put people on notice with the penal code warning.


  3. Hi there. I just followed you back to your blog after reading your comments on Stinkin’ Thinkin’ today. Thank you so much for dropping in! I will add your blog to our “helpful links” section.

    I wanted to comment on one thing you said over there, which is that “AAWS needs to take a stand.” The problem is that AAWS, Inc. is just a publishing company — nothing more — and its only concern is in protecting the AA copyright — in other words, it’s bottom line. AAWS, Inc. has said in court (when it was suing an AA member for freely distributing the Big Book), that it is in no way bound to the Traditions of AA. They do not hold themselves to the same standards that AA was founded upon. This is a corporate entity. So, they’re not going to get on board.

    The GSO is like AA’s spokesman. But, aside from paying lip service against things like sexual predation, dangerous medical advice, and the like, they absolutely cannot provide oversight, because that would put them in a position of accountability and responsibility for the things that actually happen in AA meetings — like rape. When they say “we don’t endorse this or that behavior,” they are not taking a stand, they are making a disclaimer.

    What AA enjoys right now is ideal: they are the Gold Standard in addictions treatment. Upwards of 97% of all treatment facilities in the US are based on the 12 Steps (and get their literature from AAWS or Hazelden). But they don’t have the burden of accountability of responsibility for what happens to people in AA meetings.

    Imagine what would happen to them if the GSO suddenly took the reins: if they actually trained sponsors; if they required that meetings and members uphold certain standards of behavior… They would go bankrupt with lawsuits, and they would be subject to public exposure and scrutiny. I just don’t have any faith that they would willingly put themselves in that position. They’ve got it too good.

    For those reasons, sadly, I don’t think that this revolution is going to be an inside job. I mean, I don’t think it can be and inside job. There’s too much at stake for the corporate entities at the top of the heap. They have a stellar reputation. How would they explain away 70 years of rape by taking a stand now?

    We’ve addressed 13th stepping several times on our blog, and the response from AA members has been enlightening. The men say that if a woman has been taken advantage of by members of her group, that it is her own fault for not taking basic precautions. Boys will be boys. The problem with this is that AA is not a place where people enter with the ability to take these basic precautions: they are vulnerable, addicted, confused, emotionally fragile. And they are led to believe that AA is a place where people will care. These men will say that it’s the same as walking into a barroom.

    And the women who respond will deny that they’ve ever witnessed such a thing. I just doesn’t happen. They don’t know what we’re talking about. “Try a different meeting,” they say.

    We heard from one woman who was court ordered to attend AA, where she was 13th Stepped by an old-timer who went back to the group with all the details of his conquest, which were so detailed that the members gave her a crude and humiliating nickname, which is just so disgusting that I can’t even bring myself to repeat it.

    An AA member responded to her with this:

    OK! So you happened to meet him in AA.
    I’ve never seen a sign on the wall that says anything about checking your coat, your purse and values at the door. Suppose you met him at a PTA meeting. Would it be the school districts fault somehow??

    In other words, it was her fault.

    Devastated and broken people getting together in a rarified space, with no oversight, and no standards, are instructed to trust the group; instructed to let go; instructed that their best thinking got them there; instructed to take the cotton out of their ears… If AA is going to instruct people to let go, they have got to provide a safety net. But they won’t, and when you hit the cement, it’s you’re fault for trusting.

    But at this stage of the game, I think the pressure to walk the talk has to come from the outside, from public exposure, from mass exodus, from blogs like this, and ours.

    And while I’m not an AA member, and my blog deals with a vast array of abuses that continue in AA (all a result of the same lack of oversight that allows for 13th stepping), I hope you’ll accept my solidarity with your mission here. Stand your ground on this and make some noise. It’s so important.


    1. I think there is plenty of truth here to what you say. So here’s another thought. There’s a lot of sexual harassment going on in the rehab’s that push 12 step.
      They are government funded. They are liable for what their counselors are doing to clients!!! These people are so vulnerable and at a place that they have no self esteem.
      THey stories we are beginning to hear are horrific. it’s only the tip of the iceberg.


      1. Definitely, and if you check to see the egregiously low standards required to get a certificate in addictions counseling, you’d be shocked. Do a little googling around for counseling programs, and see the course requirements.


    2. OMG. You are not a member of AA, which I take to mean that you perhaps have not read and digested the traditions of AA (the same traditions which have allowed the organization to thrive for 75 years). Here are some pertinent traditions:

      2) “For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.”

      8) “Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers.”

      I’m sure that your heart is in the right place, but my concern is that a person who comes in to a meeting for the first time, and hears the PENAL CODE being read may have all the ammunition he/she needs to decide that AA is not the right place for them and go back out. You are not a member. All of the information you are gathering is second, third, fourth-hand. If we all got the newcomer’s phone number, woman to woman and man to man, perhaps a personal phone call addressing the possibility of sex would be less threatening, while helping to establish a connection. And if we see some obvious “hitting”, it’s certainly appropriate to talk to both parties.

      I love that you are concerned for the welfare of those of us who are particularly fragile when we come into the rooms; and I agree that we could all be more vigilant after the meeting, and more pro-active in welcoming newcomers. My opinion is that enfolding the newcomer into the fellowship, rather than risking driving them off with scary warnings, would truly serve AA better.

      What kind of a program/book are you working on?


      1. Yup, studied traditions for more then 30 years. So I don’t need someone quoting them to me. The organization is Not thriving. It has been flatlining for 20 years. That means it stopped growing. It grew in the 80’s and into the 90’s. So many meetings that were in Los Angeles 9 years ago no longer exist. And most of these were Book studies which we went to. I would guess that about 1% of AA’s in LA study the traditions or have even read them.

        AA pays it’s employees millions a year. It’s in the Annual report that General Service releases. I have 2008 and 2009 report right here. Try and get the breakdown of those salaries. I still have not seen that report. It’s public information though.

        The problem with thinking we can do it one on one is not possible.
        Hundreds of us are in stagg meetings. Leaving Clubhouses like the 502 club or The Marina Center full of new comers, Predators and only a few long time sober Good men and women to be there for them. ( when we started doing outreach at some of these meetings there were NO GOOD STRONG WOMEN THERE for the new women. ANd again this happens to men.

        The rehabs and sober livings around those clubs inundate these clubs. There are not even Club Managers at The Marina Center like in the old days or like normal Clubhouses.
        So the homeless the insane and men who are not even alcoholics are coming to pray on vulnerable new women and (it happens to men to) and the new young men are sick and tired of seeing oldtimers mid 50’s guys hitting on 23 year old young women.

        I had a guy with 4 days last week come up to me and tell me he was creeped out at some meetings and that he wanted to help with this issue.

        It’s a charged issue because it has been going on forever and no one has addressed it ever at this level till this past year.

        But like one oldtimer said to me. “AA, NY and all AA has to address this. The stuff, rape is criminal activity and preying upon vulnerable folks is like f&^%$ing a cripple and , sexual battery and harassment is against the law in the work place. I know you know that. This is not a third world country but in AA people think they can get away with shit because we are “Different”. WHat kind of crap is that.

        DId you know what is going on in the United States in the Spanish community of AA.
        The oldtimer men take women up into the mountains to do their 5th step and coerce them to have sex as part of their 5th Step. Did you know that very few women in that community still Do NOt Get Sober! I was told this first hand from these women.

        DO you know that they still have 24 hour houses where they tie people up in the Name of AA which we know is not AA. IN The United States, NOT MEXICO!

        Did you know that a gay male was told he had to take off all his clothes to read his 5th step to his sponsor in West Hollywood. Did you know that when I said this in a big Gay meeting they were not surprised.

        I was shocked, disgusted and horrified. Even though I was 13 stepped by creeps a long long time ago I am astounded by the stories first hand being told to me.

        I disagree with you. At the entry to every meeting there should be a warning sign like OSHA makes employers put up. There should be a simple safety statement.
        There are many who agree and some disagree. But Each group is antonymous. So we get to have business meetings, talk, discuss and vote and make change.

        ANd so that is what about 5 groups in AA in the Los Angeles Area have done.

        I have heard only through word of mouth that even meetings in Greenwich Village have begun to address this problem. NY is not confirmed but LA is already dealing with it.

        The program is an alternative to 12 step. One more inclusive to all kinds of people.
        It addresses more then just alcoholism. It deals with the whole body, mind and spirit.
        It will be a spiritual path not a program. And no money of any significants can be involved. ANd there will be a component for non believers and something for the courts. But we will go to them. Its ridiculous they way they send them to us in AA. It needs to be more like H & I; I where we bring in panels, or new meetings.

        I am not alone. There are millions I think who have left AA. There are some 30 million Alcoholics /Addicts in The US and Canada that need help.
        This was told to me by a Non Alcoholic AA Trustee Judge.

        2 mil are in AA
        2 mil are in NA ? not really sure of their numbers.
        I think there are many who want help (to get sober) but hate AA and now I see why.. even though I loved AA for many years. AA has become very rigid, very culty, very unfriendly at Least in LA and too Christian based, saying the Lord’s prayer at the end. I loved that , for many years But thats way to over the top for todays world. Its needs to be more inclusive.

        So I have a right to my opinion and you have a right to yours. That is what the first amendment of our Constitution in about.

        Unfortunately AA was set up so change is very very hard to effect.

        Where as our government is set up so we can have change.

        The rest is simple math.


    3. ftg, I was just looking for something, and when reading the 18 page Tax return document from AA World Service, Inc., It states in the tax return that ” The General Service Board of AA, Inc. serves as The Custodian of AA Traditions and Funds. It’s acts for the society in Matters of National and International scope to further the purpose of the movement, which is the rehabilitation of persons suffering from Alcoholism and its attendant problems.” end quote. So, the first tradition is “Our common welfare should come first, and this tradition goes on to say more but that part is enough, so I ask …is rape, sexual harrasment , unwanted 13 stepping, oldtimers getting their rocks off on new vulnerable women who have sever low self esteem, or old timer gay men hitting on young new gay men so bad who were prostitutes last week and now are being raped by old, double digit sobriety gay men, financial abuses, and now AA members murdering other innocent AA members like Kristine and Saundra Cass in Honolulu this past August?

      I’m not done yet.

      I’m looking forward to reading your book:)

      I understand the Traditions. They are stating that they are the Custodian !


  4. I am so glad he is in jail. Hopefully he stays there. They do not rehabilitate. We need some sanity to return to the rooms of AA. Safety outside of stag meetings. A welcoming atmosphere. I heard a woman talking about how icy the reception to newcomers is in some meetings. I talked with her immediately about how important it is to make the newcomer feel safe and welcome. Let it begin with me. I am recommitting to making AA safe and warm for all who want sobriety.


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