Tradition 10 11 and 12…most used to defend Predators 03/13 by stop13stepinaa | Blog Talk Radio.
I have heard it said, “it’s an outside issue”.
I have heard, we’re anonymous…to who…for what…
What if I am raped by an AA man with lot’s of sobriety. What if I am harassed over and over again by men in meetings? What does it mean to have the group be more important then the individual? Was Bill sane? Did you know he suffered from deep sever depression? How much LSD did he take and for how long? Are you looking for guidance for your group or your own life. Have you wondered if your backup found in the traditions might be clearly “wrong, outdated and possibly absurd?
I encourage to look at these with an OPEN MIND. Ask yourself, does this really make sense and are these tradition really true today? AFter 36 years…I think not. Join me for a vibrant discussion about the lies read over and over again in AA meetings.
Smart Recovery, Secular for Sobriety, and Women for Sobriety might be an option.
Stop13stepinaa's Blog 
AA definitely could use the pamphlet to warn about the a hole predators. It does go both ways. However; we are all responsible for our own actions, please, please if you are going to AA, stick with the agenda. You are too vulnerable, so do the meetings, leave and follow your gut about the scum bags who see your vulnerable. You are there to save your life. After you have your footing, which can take years, then look ahead. I would not tell anyone not to go to AA but caution is the word. There are predators, liars, sponsors who are sicker than you and actually enjoy seeing someone suffering. Th phrase we will help; bs. If you are moving and need help no one volunteers. be wary and make up your own mind. CAUTION.
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dana 444- welcome. Do I know you ? YOUR name looks familiar?
I appreciate and agree with your honesty.
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Lisa you are right AA people are “sick people. Self-centered and sounds to me your a predator….Your are the problem not the solution as they would say. Carry the message /what message of I dont give #$%@ and oh its all about you. AA is a SICK ASS CULT and people like you remind me of why I left hey thanks for your brutal honesty…
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Lisa got it right AA people Are sick people….Obviously condones predator behavior/maybe she a woman predator. seen many of them too when I was in that SICK cult.
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amy- hi. Nice to see you!
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Sally, this is true. And even when we are strong we can be duped. I have been, taken sober by sober jerks.
Tricksters are clever and we can’t always know when it can happen. I was 13 stepped as a young teen and then even 22 years later I trusted a guy because he said he was in AA.
I know quite a few woman sober two decades or more who were taken financially by men in AA.
I know many men in AA taken financial by their male sponsors in AA. The whole thing needs to be exposed.
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Done. Just unsubscribe to the blog.
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Those AA apologists who say this goes on ‘everywhere’ are missing the point entirely. AA meetings are places where often vulnerable people go, they are instructed to trust those with longer sobriety than themselves (whether those people are actually trustworthy or not), and furthermore the steps require that people share a lot of personal information about themselves – and indeed expose their vulnerabilities – to an extent that no other organization would ask anyone to do. I can’t think of a more likely situation for emotional and sexual abuse to take place. There are no enforceable rules of conduct, no background checks for ‘sponsors’, who have a huge amount of personal power over the sponsee, etc.. And we’re not necessarily talking about criminal behaviour here, which can indeed be referred to the police. 13th stepping may not always be criminal, but it can definitely be exploitative, immoral, abusive and damaging.
If new members refuse to share their personal information, doubts, vulnerabilities, etc., they are accused of ‘not being honest’, or ‘being in denial’. Raising objections to the behaviour or another member is called ‘taking another person’s inventory’. If anyone does make a complaint, they will be told – as Lisa is telling people – that they should ‘seek their own part in it’ and take responsibility (this has even happened in cases of rape). In fact members are encouraged to doubt themselves and their own minds at every turn and not to have confidence in their own decision-making abilities or instincts of self-preservation. Destroying a person’s confidence and sense of self-worth, and encouraging them to blame themselves for whatever happens to them, is exactly what abusive partners and those guilty of domestic violence do.
Perhaps they can just leave . . . however there is always the threat used against them that if they do so they will inevitably drink again. Which, as they are in AA, is the last thing they want to do, and so this threat might feel very real to them.
No time to say much more now. But, Lisa, I suggest you take some time to think your comments through and perhaps have the humility to consider again what you are actually saying here.
Humanspirit
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Very well said Snowdrop. I do not understand why AA members and it’s corporation is so against people trying to protect the vulnerable in AA and NA which is done in, schools, girl scouts, boy scouts and Alateen etc. The only thing I can come up with is that they want to try and project a squeaky clean image and want the money to continue rolling in. There is no logical reason to suppress safety.
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humanspirit- Ah, so nice to see you here. I always liked your writing on ST. I still miss the blogging there.
I can’t think of a more likely situation for emotional and sexual abuse to take place. There are no enforceable rules of conduct, no background checks for ‘sponsors’, who have a huge amount of personal power over the sponsee, etc.. And we’re not necessarily talking about criminal behaviour here, which can indeed be referred to the police. 13th stepping may not always be criminal, but it can definitely be exploitative, immoral, abusive and damaging.
Well said!
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Clara- usually its not over weight women they go after but it does happen.
They go after vulnerable and you sound strong, so it does not happen to many women.
Like mfc66 is saying you were 40 when you came in..how long ago was that? AA is getting worse, especially the last 15 years. Worse the last 5 or so.
Young attractive women, young teens, those are the most vulnerable.
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Massive, I am strong, but there is no reason to snark. Despite coming into the fellowship in my 40’s, I have always been shapely with more than my share of attention that curves call to a woman. I have never been overweight in my life, and I have had many men ask me out, both in and out of AA. I don’t know where you live, Massive, but if you think life is over for women in their 40’s, that may be what it was for you. But that has never been the case for me. 13 Stepping is 13 Stepping. The ages are irrelevant.
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IN all my years most women who got sober near 30 and above were most likely less to be 13 stepped. I was not talking about you, your shape or age, After 36 years whenever we discussed it which was alot in my old women’s group it was that young twenty something who were targeted the most. Its not my opinion. This is a summation of what I have heard over 36 years in AA rooms.
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Clara, I do not see where Massive called you overweight. Maybe you need to reread it. She just stated that the men don’t go after overweight women as much. Just because you have big breasts does not mean you are overweight. She was saying you were, in her opinion, a strong woman and they go after the vulnerable.
by the way Massive is quite clever!
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I remember having discussions with several on this, including my personal therapist.
People that have been abused carry themselves a certain way and have similar character traits. It’s not always visible or noticed by average, every day folk. And it’s not bad, it just is.
Perps also carry an awareness which is psychologically ingrained within them. They can sense who the right victims are and are more intuned to it because that is what they seek. They want the easiest prey. It’s instincitve just as much as it is in four legged creatures.
With this in mind, those that aren’t a victim personality aren’t going to get as threatened by these perps. The perps stay away, instinctively knowing that they aren’t a good target.
Clara, you don’t have that quality. At least that is my assumption. The most vulnerable are children or women that are young and more sick.. Since the beginning of time it is those have been the most preyed upon. In the rooms, the women that are more ill (new) are easy to pick out and become a victim.
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Clara I did have a go at him. The damaged young types that think they are safe in an AA programme that members like yourself are keen to promote as a safe environment deserve more.
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Actually somebody came up to me the other who had no idea I had ever been to meetings and who lives in he same area as me. He said a friend of his goes to the trendy AA meetings to pick up women because their are loads of damaged young model types there looking for a man. That is reputation it is getting here. The problem inside the rooms is much worse as many who attend are over trusting after rehab and are easy to manipulate. To say that somebody is resposiblefor being 13stepped is stupid and shows how out of touch with reality long term steppers are. They justify sitting on their areses and ignoring uncomfortable issues is say don take somebody’s invontary . I do not trust many members of AA and that is a result of experience.
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My first experiences about hearing about AA came from an Oprah show in the 80’s when she featured Ginie Polo Sayles, who had written a book on marrying rich. She said to go to AA meetings. I remember thinking then, why would anyone want someone with “those” problems? Playboy said something about AA meetings, too. I don’t think that AA promotes that viewpoint, I think it is promoted for them. Those are people that are using meetings for purposes other than they were intended for, and that isn’t AA’s fault. But I think if you know someone is just going to AA to pick up damaged model types, why not step in and suggest that isn’t really very appropriate and perhaps the guy would be worthy of a more together woman? After all, HE is the one that is the problem, not the damaged model types that he wants to exploit.
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mfc66 did you ever report this to AA watch in the UK? do they actually do any good? My question makes me wonder if what I am doing is helping at all.I guess to those who need to blog it helps but it is not stopping it.
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Massive,
It is very difficult for you to determine who and how many you are helping. If you had a mandatory sign up list in order to read material you post, listen the show you do, and hear the speaking you have done – you might be able to send out a questionairre.
Remember too that people come and go, information collects into their brain (info, danger signs, etc) and it’s stored and seeped out when it gets triggered and is released. Some that you have helped don’t always know it was from you and how or why.
Even an AA that comes and reads or defends, learns something. Many will have their defense mechanism sparked when needed (it will be released), some based upon things that you have done and they learned from. Others too.
Then you have those that are completely aware and will always remember.
It’s significant really. 🙂 Maybe half of the individual hits that your website gets gives a person knowledge and awareness. Different levels perhaps, but it is there.. Just a guess, because half might get here on accident and move on without a second thought – let alone a first one.
Check it out. I’ll bet it’s significant enough to suit what you wonder.
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i reported it locally as I still know people with major influence who I respect in the rooms and a warning was read out at several meetings. This happened over a year ago .I think aa cultwatch are starting to get things together. I have not done much blogging etc in the last 18 months but have noticed some positive changes in the last few months. I have never written anything for them as I no longer in AA or any group.
I do think you are doing good. Even if people talk about safety issues dissmissively which I’m sure they will it will still cause some to think. It is impossible to protect everyone and somebody will get hurt but by raising the issue you are making people think. that is a good start..
I hate to see 13 stepping – it can push someone towards relapse and running away from all forms of recovery very fast. Unfortunately many of the people who come into AA are used to fairly wild partying lifestyles and don’t see the problem in what he are doing. You also have some really controlling people and those who want to be saved. It is probably safer than hanging out in some of the wilder clubs but contains many of the same problems.
It would be good to talk in person , I will get in touch soon. Take care M
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Sean, you also said that AA “helped far more than it failed”.
Where did you get that information? The big book? Perhaps heard it in a meeting? I guarantee it didn’t come from an existing study because there is none that shows AA is succesful.
Please show me where it says that AA helps any more then 5% of the members? Just that, let alone 10 or 20%.
Btw, If it helps only 5% is failing 95%. That’s certainly the opposite of your absurd statement above. It actually kills more people then it helps. Now that’s horrendous!
http://orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
The above link gives a good explanation of any valid studies that have ever been made concerning AA. Even George Vaillant, a member on the board of alcoholics anonymous, did a study that followed members for 8 years. He wanted to prove that AA worked. The truth is, he found that more AA members died then got sober and the rest started drinking again.
I got clean and sober after I left AA. For years it did nothing but induce sadness, confusion and relapsing because the literatur and other know it all members told me that I COULDN’T do it. That only a HP could. Well, God must love you more then me, and I’ve been faithful and loyal to Him my entire life. The truth is that God wants me to keep myself sober and that is why He gave me the gift of will when He gave me my life.
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Sean said:
“You people should be ashamed, you know little or nothing about what you go on about, not realizing that if it were up to you the people that need AA the most would be barred from attending.”
Who says we know little or nothing and where did you get that information? Tarot cards? Crystal balls?
I’ve been a member and worked the program, and btw it didn’t help me a damn. I also saw and experienced some of the awful behavior with my own very eyes. Get your information correct before you say that “you people” know little or nothing about AA. Perhaps it is you that doesn’t know the real AA.
I realize that if it were up to me, AA wouldn’t exist as it does today. They are a lying and deceiving fake religion that has an awful success rate in helping alcoholics recover yet it claims to be the very best. They are in it for the money and use cultist tactis and propaganda to brainwash members, keeping them “coming back” without ever questioning the absurd lies written in the big book. It was all based on the greed of a narcistic opportunist and a religious fanatic.
Kind and loving people need help recovering from alcoholism as well as the sick, sordid perps that are also alcoholic. About the ones you mention above that “need AA the most”: Yes, either kick them out or protect the others that happen to be sitting along side them and are vulnerable, unknowing of their other foul intentions.
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Sean, it is acknowledged that crime and sexual abuse happens in many places. It’s awful! Agreed?
You said:
“Abuse happens EVERYWHERE, churches, schools, youth clubs, sports team, jobs, military, and yes AA.”
Now tell me Sean and Lisa.
How many of those places shut the eyes to the abuse and let it continue without acknowledging that it happens and start doing something about?
How many of those institutions leave it up to the people involved to deal with it?
It’s even public knowledge that the Catholic Church was covering up abuse for years. It’s FINALLY in the public eye. Why? People have become aware because there are some very brave souls that stood up, spoke up and got people to listen. That induced changed which is what Massive and many others are doing. Speaking out.
We want AA to stop pretending that sexual misconduct and crime doesn’t exist surrounding their members and fellowship and start taking action to prevent it. Why in the world would either of you NOT want AA to do that? Please give me just one good answer. If not, maybe you can help. Notify AA.org and let them know your concerns just as we are. People should be able to feel and have safety while they are enduring the hardship of recovering.
Since AA has been notified of these mishaps (yes, there is proof of that) and decided not to do anything about it (yes, there is proof of that too), then they lost there chance to be a stand up, honorable religion and make changes to help protect their members from the slime that sit around slithering in their chairs, searching for their next victim.
So we speak up and speak loudly to make it known.
AA can be unsafe!
It’s structure allows for minors and vulnerable adults to mix with predators that are anonymous but has no authoritative persons present nor has any safety measures or regulations in place.
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First of all to the people bashing on Lisa, really personal responsibility is a bad thing? She makes a good point that the rest of you refuse to even acknowledge. Abuse happens EVERYWHERE, churches, schools, youth clubs, sports team, jobs, military, and yes AA. The problem you people have is that AA doesn’t police it’s rooms? Well guess what, we have police for that, duh! AA is a place to get sober, and the fact of the matter is that these actions a the exception, by far and not the rule. I got sober in the rooms at the age of 17 and can tell you I needed no coddling, no protection from older members, none of that. I had just come in from living on the street and doing what ever was needed to survive and stay drunk. If anyone needed protection it was them! If someone is abused, then by all means THEY should report it to the proper authorities, just like they would ANYWHERE ELSE!!! You people should be ashamed, you know little or nothing about what you go on about, not realizing that if it were up to you the people that need AA the most would be barred from attending. You know in 23 years of sobriety I’ve seen it all, and I can tell you with out a doubt that 13th stepping is a two way street, and that I have seen ten times as many newcomer go out and die from alcoholism by being coddled, controlled, and protected to death by ignorant assholes that try to regain their lost innocence in every poor newcomer that walks through the door. The real predators are people like you, that don’t know shit, and actually believe that the newcomers are sweet virginal little innocents, and not the low down desperate alcoholics that they really are! The traditions aren’t used to protect any predators from legal action, but that are there to allow ANYONE regardless of their past transgressions from being kicked out of AA. It’s also a shame at times that AA has the tradition of having no opinion on outside issues, because it allows assholes like to to have a relatively unanswered soapbox to rant your retarded hatred of a program that has helped far more than it failed.
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They fail 95% of those that walk through the doors. Personal responsibility, does not mean you are able to control the behaviors of others that want to harm you. Men who 13 step in the rooms and sexually assault other AA members, is the fault of the perpetrator, not the victim. AA should not be allowing mandated killers and rapists into rooms along with minors Sean. Alateen does background check and implements other safety measures for minors. I want AA to do the same thing for the minors they invite. If they cannot protect the children and teens then they should only have meetings for adults.
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Anti D, can you put up that link to Paul C’s letter to the AA General Service Board for these two to see.
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Sean- Abuse happens everywhere. really? IN church…they are still getting sued for Millions. The KKK still getting sued and victims are winning.
Sure we love personal responsibility….I dont ever want to hear it’s an out side issue.
WHen women are getting grabbed, licked and hugged, raped and assaulted under the guise of spiritual bullshit you are gonna piss me off.
45 year old with time hitting on 23 year olds? Not the AA program as most parents are expecting.
No we are not going to be ashamed. You should be ashamed that you are here trolling a site for victims taking the perps side.
I know plenty. I have more then 3 decades in AA sober mister…I came as a teen mister. NO we are not the predators. We are a site for victims.
If you troll the site again I will block you and call the police.
you said …It’s also a shame at times that AA has the tradition of having no opinion on outside issues, because it allows assholes like to to have a relatively unanswered soapbox to rant your retarded hatred of a program that has helped far more than it failed.
so now you are calling me or us assholes. really….go back to your lovely AA. You are not welcome here.
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What is this licked and hugged routine? I have been a large breasted woman sine the age of 14. Literally overnight, and I have known since that age how to keep people at a physical distance. Since I didn’t come into the rooms until my 40’s, that’s a long time to have knowlege that you don’t have to be anywhere in particular to know that someone might put a squeeze on you. I also have wouldn’t be discouraged to report a crime if someone did something to me that merited it. It wouldn’t matter who or where. I also know women that have gone exclusivelly to women’s meeting throughout their entire association with AA. That’s an option. Should people behave that way? No, but I have had a lifetime of experience that they do.
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“I have seen ten times as many newcomer go out and die from alcoholism by being coddled, controlled, and protected to death by ignorant assholes that try to regain their lost innocence in every poor newcomer that walks through the door”.
Sean, that’s really a description of sponsorship. Control and infantalize.
“…don’t know shit, and actually believe that the newcomers are sweet virginal little innocents, and not the low down desperate alcoholics that they really are..” Hmm, is’nt alcoholism considered a disease in AA? Why do you call people with a “disease” “low down”?
When you put people under the control of someone, then tell them they are diseased and sick, but consider them “low down” and make damn sure they know they are nothing, it’s really not menally healthy. I think that these incongruencies are a big part of why AA fails so many people. If you don’t want to assume the position of “newcomer piece of shit” then you don’t want to “do the work” and it’s your fault. If you assume the position assgned, then trust all the good AA people trying to help you, and get taken advantage of in some way whether sexual, financial, or otherwise; then it is your fault for getting into that situation. If you are a young person coming to AA and get sexually used by an older memeber, well you were just a little slut anyway or why else would you be in AA?
It’s like a game, all that circular thinking. It’s so refreshing to me to come to sites like this and see people discuss issues like this the way people outside of AA discuss abuses in the public arena, without people being shut up by AA passive-agressive tactics or pontification.
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Border Collie Mix,
Excellent post !!! Like always you articulately get to the point with facts; leaving no wiggle room and without instigating unnecessary, unproductive arguments.
13 stepping is so prevalent in AA that the fellowship has even labeled the act with a “cute little name”. Just because you are 13 stepped doesn’t mean you wanted it, ask for it or agreed to it. Overlooking or ignoring the seriousness of this immoral act is demeaning to the victim and many times illegal; yet it still happens and then is frequently justified by members of the program. Why should individuals have to go to same sex meetings in order to be safe, in an organization that claims to have a reputation as a safe place for recovery
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Amy, Hi there! Missed ya! It is a great point that even if some actions are not criminal that occur in AA/NA, yet are still immoral and damaging nonetheless. If AA was so safe and wonderful, you would not see such a high failure rate. Now we have a number of blogs and articles, that are growing in numbers about the damage that 12 step meetings can inflict.
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Sean,
you know as well as the rest of us, that AA members do not think on their own. it is “suggested”, instructed that the group comes first & that they are to interact & follow a “sponsor’s” “suggestions” & to always, always put the group first. since the beginning of AA, group members have striven & succeeded in keeping the organizations dirty laundry from the outside world, including the police. Members had to keep a sharp eye & a tight rein on Wilson, due to his sexual exploitation & abuse of attractive female alcohol addicts who came to the group thinking they could find help & safety. Through out AA’s history, females have been sexually abused & exploited & they have told their sponsor’s & other group members & were repeatedly “suggested”, that they do not go to the police or tell other members, for the good of the group. The members who covered for Wilson also did this for the good of the group. Since the very beginning Wilson & AA & rigorous honesty about many matters & this sexual exploitation & abuse situation have had nothing to do with one another. About the last thing AA has anything to do with is honesty, never did & never will.
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Hi bluerules- cool handle! Welcome and thanks for supporting the truth being told. There is a new forum for those leaving. recovering from recovery. OP has gotten a bit filled with trolls so someone started a new site.
Again, thanks for posting!
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also I did a radio show ripping up the 12 traditions. You might enjoy it. on http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery
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I think if you know that someone has poor motives toward another, it is important to talk to that person and tell them in a way that is not gossipy or nasty, or ask a trusted friend of the same gender to do it. It doesn’t matter if it is an AA group or not. Some groups have the “no dating for a year” recommendation so that newcomers will stay more focussed on sobriety than a partner. Still, it is only a recommendation. No one can force someone not to date someone if they still want to… The extent of what you can do is inform in a non-judgmental way.
I know a couple that has a more open relationship. She really doesn’t care what he does as long as they stay married, which means this married AA dates women in the fellowship. But you aren’t going to know that unless someone tells you. It looks as if he is catting around. When I mentioned it, his WIFE told me of their status. It’s a fine line between conscientiously looking out for a vulnerable person and MYOB. I don’t know people that have been involved with others against their will, even if I did think they made dumb choices. My attempt to enlighten a poor lass was met with more of a suspicion that I wanted the guy for myself than to suggest that she wait awhile to date and then look for someone with more positive intentions toward women.
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Is catting around during an open relationship mean it is okay to 13 step someone? Telling someone that it might be wise to wait to date, is TOTALLY different than WARNING members of KNOWN 13 steppers, sexual predators, financial scammers and violent criminals.Also an overall WARNING that one needs to be careful because there are mandated mentally ill nutcases running around, even though you might not have spotted or had your AA blinders on.
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I didn’t think so, Anti, which is why I spoke to the woman about it. But my point is that it still is a situation where one has to have a cautious approach. Hence, a man to talk with him about it and a woman to talk with her about it. While he might not be a predator, a word that can mean almost anything, this guy didn’t have anything to really offer any of the women he “courted” and gosh knows what he told them. But I believed his wife when she told me that his dating around was fine with her. In fact, I think she spoke to me about it because I was “misinformed” and it might have been viewed as interferring.
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Clara- the problem is that alot AA’s are wuss. Chicken shits, pussies, ….you name it. They or many of them have no hutzpah. SO they turn a blind eye. even back in the 70’s my sponsor was the only one I knew who gave the 13 stepper shit who 13 stepped new young women for decades.
Sorry to say Clara, it’s not enough and yes AA members and the public have a right to know who is really attended meetings and that old timer men and some cougar women are there ready to pounce over & over again. And from the mouth of the last AA Pacific Region Trustee, Sex offenders who are not even sentenced talk about AA women how easy they are and easy cheap catch. SHe said parole officers hear this all the time. She said this to me just a few weeks ago at the PRAASA in Washington Event.
So to Sean and Lisa….stop throwing your AA balls around! You are not impressing us at ALL!
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Ahh, bullshit Lisa. It’s not black and white, every case is different. If you are in AA then you are admittedly very sick. Keep your psychobabble analysis of the sexually abused to yourself and let them find their way to healing with professional guidance. Stay out of it and stick only to the stuff that you know about:
Picking it up and pouring it down and how to stop doing that.
Teaching a victim that they played a roll is pouring more guilt over an already scared and scarred individual. Get real girl. AA’s only purpose is to get people to feel sinful and sacrifice those sins to the pagan God of Alcoholism. What you are preaching here are the words of insanity by a man named Bill Wilson that lied, cheated, stole, caring about nothing but himself.
Oh jeeze you also spout slogans. Listen to yourself sometime and try to grasp the meaning. What are you conveying and really saying?
There are other ways to stop 13 stepping, the sexual abuse and harrassment of anyone in the meetings. Don’t just leave it up to the recoverying people, they have enough on their plate and are not trained to deal with those mishaps. Vote to get AA involved in regulating meetings and getting the sick sexual greeds out.
I’m no longer a member of the program. Thank heavens I learned the truth. In other words, I could give a crap about what any tradition says. I have no respect for AA with their lies and cultist tactics.
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sally- ditto!
Teaching a victim that they played a roll is pouring more guilt over an already scared and scarred individual. Get real girl. AA’s only purpose is to get people to feel sinful and sacrifice those sins to the pagan God of Alcoholism. What you are preaching here are the words of insanity by a man named Bill Wilson that lied, cheated, stole, caring about nothing but himself.
That’s right, After 35 years the rampant 13 stepping is going on in a worse way then ever.
Do you want to know why. Hundred , thousands of good folks have left and are leaving. #rd Level sex offenders are here to stay.
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Lisa- Really. Of course things go on. It sounds like you are making a special exception to AA. Once putting it and it’s members and meetings above the law. This blog is to help those who have been preyed on by predators in AA not Pro AA wackos who want to bully and pontificate like you get to do at your meetings or to your sponsees. You dont get to bully and push us around with you 1950’s thinking about how woman should be treated ANYWHERE including an AA /NA meeting.
you said …we are sick people here. …So were you a 13 stepper then? Are you confessing?
you said…That means that if YOU were thirteenth stepped and you bought into it, YOU screwed up.
No… the victim of a rape , an assault or sexual harassment is not the VICTIMS fault. Its because of woman like you in AA that things are still so bad.
you said…THEY are responsible for the outcome. AA is. In a non profit 5013c the Board of Directors has a responsibility to warn it’s members if criminal behavior is going on.
AT every level AA meetings , AA area, AA Central Office and AA in NY Headquarters can be sued for neglect and fraud.
Yes something should be done. But in our opinion, not just warn them. Its not enough.
you said…for carrying the message of recovery to the alcoholic who still suffers. Singleness of purpose, friends. Keep comin’ back!
PLease stop your AA lingo….were are not stupid and don’t need your rhetoric here. We are fighting a serious Sexual, and financial predator situation.
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Of course these things go on. We are alcoholics, for God’s sake. We are sick people, especially when we are new. However, we are each responsible for our own decisions and our own behavior. That means that if YOU were thirteenth stepped and you bought into it, YOU screwed up. If YOU have been around for awhile and were taken advantage of by a NEWCOMER, YOU are responsible. What an utter waste of time and a complete slap in the face to those of us who are members in good standing to start a public forum (eleventh tradition?) about an indiscretion on YOUR part. It’s like asking for world peace. A complete waste of time because some people are just bad, to put it nicely. If you want to stop thirteenth stepping call the people on it when you see it and warn newcomers about it when the come in, especially of you sponsor them. If they do it anyway, THEY are responsible for the outcome. We each have a personal responsibility to try to prevent it, but I am not responsible for controlling other people’s behavior. I am responsible, however, for carrying the message of recovery to the alcoholic who still suffers. Singleness of purpose, friends. Keep comin’ back!
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Lisa, I really cannot even believe what you wrote. Lets start with minors that are invited in to AA by AA members. AA members with the blessing of AA World Services goes into our high schools and other avenues to get to our youth to tell them to come to AA. They also make sure to say, you are NEVER TOO YOUNG for Alcoholics Anonymous. This is with the full knowledge that AA members are also encouraging and welcoming violent criminals and 3rd level sex offenders to the very same meetings as minors.
Is it a 15 year old girls fault when she is sexually assaulted by an adult AA member? As a society it our responsibility to protect the young. They look up to us and depend on us to what is in their best interest.
Yet AA World Services with full knowledge of sexual abuse of minors and other vulnerable members of society voted to do NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, to protect those that they invite into their fold.
People, that does include AA members have a responsibility to keep their hands off other people. It is their responsibility to not rape, steal, rob, 13 step fellow members or those outside of meetings.
Your feelings of blaming the victim is pathetic. It is people like you that try to prevent the protection of minors, women and others at AA meetings including other 12 step programs like Narcotics Anonymous and Cocaine Anonymous.
You mention the singleness of purpose. Do you think it might just help a newbie to not get financially scammed, raped, and harassed? That might just help them not want to drink if they are not so busy fighting off 13 steppers that is so rampant in Alcoholics Anonymous.
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ANd to add on to what Anti D says here. The Traditions are a bunch of lines, sentences, words streaming after each other making no sense and may I add.
Many of them are lies now. Read Hank Hayes book you’ve been lied too… or listen to my previous show on blog talk radio about Tradition 1-9.
AA is completely aligned with prisons, treatment and rehab and now colleges.
Hold on I need to vomit. Thanks Anti D for a great post.
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Excuse me, Lisa? Did you just engage in one of the most hateful spews I’ve seen recently of victim blaming and follow it with a “Keep comin’ back!”??? That’s very interesting to me, for if these people are, as you say, “just bad”, then why exactly is the fault that of those they victimize?
It might not have occurred to you that the people who might be posting here have already heard that nonsense quite enough, so let me spell it out for you. These online “public forum(s)” are one of the few places people can get any healing after being preyed upon sexually, financially and emotionally in “the rooms”. If you hadn’t already guessed, “the rooms” are a bit too full of people asking everyone to “look for their part in” everything bad that happened to them, which helps no one–and furthermore, isn’t even remotely pertinent to the actual issue at hand, getting and staying sober.
That said, if people are so sick, especially when they’re new, isn’t it then the responsibility of the group asking them to place their trust in to at least monitor itself and these new, vulnerable people? Please stop blaming others for the faults of an extremely faulty program, and while you’re at it, please look up Just World Hypothesis research. If anyone online ever needed to, it’s you.
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PIE- HI, nice to see you here.
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I can snip , edit or delete your post but for 24 hours I will leave it up and ask the bloggers shall I delete this one or leave it up so we can see why it is that we left AA running from people like you.
Thank god AA is not filled with people like you. I know and still have great friends who are in the rooms still. God only knows why, but,
Again fellow bloggers shall I delete this garbage or leave it so we can see how stupid it really is.
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Hey! PLEASE leave it up, Massive, I’ll screen cap it just in case you don’t, but this is one of the best examples online I have yet to see of a 12 stepper in full victim blaming mode. It’s also a great link to send to others who might be on the fence about these issues, or just those in the program who might not think this sort of thinking possible on the part of a fellow member. Just my 2 cents;)
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