Alcoholics Anonymous Lawsuit

lawsuit pictureOn Tuesday, October 14th the Santa Clarita Alcoholics Anonymous chapter was served a lawsuit in the death of Karla Brada. Mendez vs. Alcoholics Anonymous.

Justice for Karla who was murdered by Eric Allen Earle, September 1, 2011, Earle who was court ordered to AA over 52 times for 22 years to AA, instead of jail time.

Karla has not been the only woman murdered by a man who was court ordered to AA meeting who was violent. ( Kristine and Saundra Cass in Hawaii 2010. )

#1 AA has no safety policies or procedures even though they were warned by a Board member Paul Cleary in 2008.

#2 AA was warned again by Monica Richardson , a long standing member who wrote AA headquarters a long 9-page letter documenting the finding they were uncovering Southern California . …They voted to do nothing.

The Make AA Safer Workshops made a group of women aware that women were not only getting 13 stepped but more were reporting rapes to Monica and Kali and many of the rapes were not getting reported to the police.

Ms M. , a Trustee told Monica many times that parole officers told her numerous times that Sexual Predators in jail were making fun of AA women and actually go there to target them as victims as they were “easier than picking up women in a bar”

Warn all the members you know about the court ordering. Men are victimized as well. you can reach us at makeaasafer@gmail.com for any support, complaints and or literature we created while we did the Make AA Safer Workshops.

At the Area 05 level they voted against my pamphlet. EVEN though all I wanted to do was discuss and hand it out. From the top down they bullied us and other women I knew who brought this lovely literature to AA meetings.

I have been contacted from all over the world about sexual and finance predation in AA meetings and in its culture.

I have mailed and sent this literature all over the world as well.

More murders and rapes occurred.5.5×8.5_fin_02-12 safey pam

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94 thoughts on “Alcoholics Anonymous Lawsuit

      1. I agree, it is not a God given program.
        If any AA person read what a morally bankrupt person Bill Wilson was , the hard facts people!!! Wake up!! Then maybe they would have to look elsewhere at this Cult has given predators free reign in meetings, rehabs, to further their sick agenda. Go ahead challenge me , I dare you with my own email to communicate . Why? Because of this sick institution being the only way to get sober in all hospitals , etc. I have had things happen to me from being forced into this Cult that has done irreparable harm to me. Yes rape, many times. Being told it was my fault by so called sponsors!! Keep it simple stupid is a mantra in AA. Being stupid , not questioning their beloved Bill W. , following and not ever questioning. Because watch out if you do!! You are told you will die!! One way of thinking? No questioning ?? Dare go against the BIG BOOK that seems to have replaced the Bible even. This outdated modality of treatment for addiction is Killing people. I’ve witnessed this for 30 years!!
        2% success rate. I’m furious at the following this group has attained.
        I tried , I really tried to use this way , it is NOT a medically proven way to address this human condition.
        It is a money making business for rehabs, don’t even get me started on sober homes, I managed 2, and it’s another bad program that needs to be shut down. Go ahead you AA koolaiders,
        I’m ready for it. I have had 25 years of this crap to be able to give an informed opinion and too many deaths than I want to remember, so I can’t be blown off as an outsider making a comment.
        Whew, I never speak about this, it must be time .

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    1. I AM AN IRISH 48 YEAR OLD FEMALE. I AM SOBER FOR 26 CONSECUTIVE YEARS AS I WRITE. THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER HERE IS THAT UNDOUBTEDLY – AT THE POINT OF ITS ORIGIN, AKRON, OHIO IN 1935 – BILL & BOB LEFT FAR TOO MUCH TO CHANCE IN THE WRITING OF THE “BIG BOOK” OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS.

      I ALSO FEEL THAT THE “NO BOSSES” CONCEPT WHILE MOST LIKELY “PURE IN ITS INTENTION” – EVOLVED TO BE A MOST SICKENING “LOOPHOLE” UPON WHICH “RESPONSIBILITY & ACCOUNTABILITY” COULD BE AVOIDED 110% BY AA.

      I WOULD ASK THE MEMBER TO WHOM I AM REPLYING THIS QUESTION; IF KARLA MENDEZ WAS YOUR DAUGHTER OR GRAND DAUGHTER – WOULD YOU FEEL / WRITE THE SAME WAY?? YOU WOULD KNOW (I’M SURE) THAT THE “STRONG RECOMMENDATION” OF AA TO ITS MEMBERS IS NOT TO GET INVOLVED IN A RELATIONSHIP (OR MAKE ANY SERIOUS DECISION FOR THAT MATTER) FOR AT LEAST TWO WHOLE YEARS… THERE IS A VERY VALID REASON FOR THAT RECOMMENDATION; WE ARE QUITE SIMPLY “NOT RIGHT IN THE HEAD” BY THE TIME WE REACH THE DOORS OF AA, REGARDLESS OF OUR ACTUAL AGE. I MYSELF WAS BLESSED ON 2 COUNTS. 1; IT WAS MY 10 YEARS OLDER BROTHER WHO BROUGHT ME TO MEETINGS FOR THE FIRST TWO YEARS (AND NEVER, EVER DID HE HOLD BACK ON WARNING ME ABOUT “PREDATORS” ATTENDING AA MEETINGS). 2; ALTHOUGH I WAS YOUNG WHEN I FOUND AA, I WAS ALSO HIGHLY INTELLIGENT & SUPER VIGILANT. AND I HAVE WITNESSED COUNTLESS YOUNG WOMEN AND INDEED MEN, WHO WERE TOTALLY VULNERABLE, SCREWED UP AND THEN ABUSED YET AGAIN AT THE HANDS OF SO CALLED “SOBER, LONG-TERM MEMBERS OF AA” – FACT. WHEN I ARRIVED AT AA, THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO I WOULD NOT CONVERSE / DRINK TEA WITH AND 26 YEARS LATER – SAME APPLIES. AA IS A HAVEN TO QUESTIONABLE PEOPLE FOR WHOM “ALCOHOLISM” IS A SECONDARY PROBLEM, BUT NOT THEIR PRIMARY ONE – FACT.

      IF I HAD A DAUGHTER, AA IS NOT SOMEWHERE I WOULD CONSIDER SENDING HER… EVER, EVER.

      AND YES, FOR “HER OWN” PERSONAL SAFETY.

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      1. Thank you Bernadette for writing . AA is accountable and they think they are above the law. We will find a way. They are a non profit. They spend all their money on themselves and do NOT GIVE BACK to suffering substance users.
        The time will come.

        A national Sexual Harassment law suit will eventually come to pass.
        Many Large Lawsuits for being forced to join an organization for a traffic ticket will happen and each state will be sued.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. AA is self supporting. All the money that is collected is for meeting rent, so the suffering alcoholic has somewhere to go, for literature, so the suffering alcoholic has instructions for how to recover, for coffee or snacks, so hungry, tired, broken and suffering alcoholics lost and defeated by this disease, can feel a little more at home.

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      3. HI Karen- AA is not self supporting. That is an illusion.
        More then 50 % of their donation do not come from members. They come from Literature sold to rehabs and strangers who are being forced to attend AA.

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      4. Maria J- Thank you for writing. I am so sorry that you have been hurt in such a Criminal way by AA members. Rape – but to make matters worse are the women sponsors who ask” what is your part in it? ” NONE !!! Are you okay now. Do you want to help in any activism. Do you want to join the Deprogramming group I created on FACEBOOK ?

        Next week there is a court date for the Case still against AA Santa Clarita Central Office. Then in 2017 there will begin a trial.

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  1. PS THIS NONSENSE OF A LAW SUIT WILL NOT EVEN GO TO COURT. A MEMBERSHIP THAT SAVES LIVES IS ONLY BEING ATTACKED FOR MONEY.HOW SICK IS THAT

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  2. sorry mom but i am right maybe you should seek out some sort of help for your own issues its very easy to lay blame on other things drunks do it all the time

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  3. if this woman was serious about getting sober she would not have dated ,shame on anyone who blames AA. im sober 11 years and have met the best people on earth in aa.my sister has 4 years now, and she has a great life now because she wanted to get sober she did not go to aa to find a boyfriend

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    1. Have you met everybody on earth. Im sober 32 years in AA AND all that is is AA lingo. How stupid a statement to make and I hear it often. What about all the people who give to society,s needy and poor all over the world and expect nothing in return. AA is slowly dying because of its insularity and the awful defences put up for the unhealthy control exerted by a large majority of its members. To somehow suggest that this poor lady was somehow responsible for her own murder is just deplorable. Bill Wilson said that “the illness centres in the mind” and this kind of thinking demonstrates that. I surely wouldnt like to attend one of your meetings where a fellow members death at the hands of another member is treated as an outside problem. I will pray for your soul.

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  4. @’anonymous’- oh, not necessarily. Signature sheets are not 100% proof that an individual was court-mandated. As only one example: a meeting location that was frequented by homeless people (alcoholic or not), and after attending meetings they needed the papers signed to verify their whereabouts so they could get back into the homeless shelter at night. Had nothing to do with courts- was shelter’s rule.

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    1. Oh, and I also had some friends who attended group counseling sessions, and their counselors required signed proof that they attended meetings, too. None were court-ordered.

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  5. Karla’s family is going after the wrong party but only cuz they want money. It’s all about the money, not “getting the word out,” as they claim. If it were really true about what they are saying, then they would be going after the organization who sent Mr Earle to AA in the first place. The only problem about that scenario is that, although the word can get out, you still can’t sue the government.

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    1. You have no idea what it is like to have your daughter murdered. And your callousness towards them is despicable and only shows the coldness you as an AA member have when a women gets murdered by a man she met in AA.
      Do you really think this is the first murder? NO. Decades ago they covered up the early murders of jealous husbands when women early in AA drove off with a Man to take them to their first meetings. Being told they were the only ones who could help the “still suffering alcoholic” What BS that it.

      But back to you and your nasty comment….THere are many at fault here, AA, at the NY Level, AA at the group level and AA at the area and district levels as well….

      The Courts, The rehab she attended and People like you who blame the rape or murder victim. Why didn’t karla leave, why did she wear those clothes, why not sue Action Family. Your stupid ass remark will be left up for the world to read TINA!

      AA has a bullseye on its forehead and its center is eliciting criminals while knowing that the courts were ordering these felons at the same time DUIs people with .08 alcohol level like Karla ( although Karla DID not get a DUI,) are sent to AA with no warning. AA headquarters knows this and has for 40 + years. The woman to ran the prison system in California was sitting on the AA General Service Board.
      You did not come to this site to look for help or report harm done to you by 13 stepping… “Be gone with you before someone drops a house on you ” ” The Wizard of OZ “

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      1. aa saves lives, it saved mine and countless others. apparenly anyone who blames needs to look in the mirror if she made a choice to date a man that her choice im guessing the mother cant take responsibiliy for her bad parenting

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    2. Brian, this is a site for rape victims! And you decided to take time out of your humble and sober life to a) do Karla’s parents thinking for them and b) take their inventory and c) sit in judgement. Super sober! Well done. You have NO IDEA of their pain, NO IDEA what their motives are, and NO IDEA of the reality of what is going on in AA. Can I suggest you go and do a tenth and then come back and make amends for your comments. And for your information WE ARE going after the organisation that sent him there. But AA is a 501c, it’s a charity, it’s a legal entity and as such it IS responsible … legally. I applaud karla’s parents efforts. People who are harmed in AA are bullied and belittled enough as it is, so this site was created as a SAFE place for them to come and share. Perhaps in your morning meditation you might wish to contemplate the reasons why you felt it appropriate that you came here and passed judgement.

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    3. @Brian: re: ‘you still can’t sue the government’- sure you can. However, AA isn’t the government- it only seems to think it is. AA wants to ‘govern’ virtually everyone and everything- but plenty of us are saying ‘the hell with THAT!’

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    4. Guess what, the govt is being sued over Obozo’s hhs mandate. It violates 1st amendment. They dump this sicko into the rooms. Like sentencing a pedophile to a grammar school. You can sue AA world svces after you warn them and they do ZERO.
      The free ride is over folks.

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  6. In response to your challenge and attack against my honor and integrity I submit:
    I’ll never give up my right as an American under the 1st Amendment to respond to anyone attempting to use that right [me and millions of others] give you to spew a false pretext to advance a personal agenda. As for your question am I a grown up; after serving to help others for 32 years — yes, I’m a year older than you and probably more qualified to response with some knowledge of American law to counter your legal position as is my duty when the legal system is use for frivolous reasons. It’s why the system is so backlogged and those who look at their part in any injustice–should look to the source of the problems. My argument against your arguments are based upon the evidence in this case that says: Although tragic anyone should die like the victim of her murderous boy friend … I just can’t buy into the position you are spewing. It’s that simple. In my research, I see 80 people out of 300 million seem to believe what you are saying–you have a lot of work to do to convince Americans like me … Some words of wisdom … just because you file a lawsuit doesn’t mean it will overcome the frivolous challenge for which this case will not survive based upon the claims and defendants it seek to hold accountable for the actions of two people–who made a decision to date, engaged and move in together giving rise to the murder.

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    1. This is not a newspaper site. And even then, the LA TIMES refused to tell the truthful story about AA in Los Angeles. Why…I would guess its run by a stepper. I was in AA for 36 years

      About my attack against your honor an integrity????REALLY …I don’t think so….

      FACT: It is not my lawsuit …I have filed nothing…stop putting words in my mouth. How many AA murders ike this do you know about. There are many , all over the country. AA in NY knows this kind of court ordering was going on yet they never warned their membership …THey have all that stuff in their computers in NY Since 2009 they keep some pretty organized records. I have been there. I have seen it. Paul C and ex Board member also warned them on 2008 and they voted to no NOTHING.

      #2 I can see you already forgot you say to me ” SHAME ON YOU ” as if you were the Wizard of OZ and the man behind the curtain.

      Give it a rest. I almost removed this post. I will think on it and do what is best for the blog.

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  7. There is no manipulation off facts …

    AA has been sued and served. FACT

    No money is being made anywhere. FACT.

    Shame on me….really?…are you a grown up or are you a arrogant judgmental AA zealot? I think the later….for sure. Shame on me.

    You are so f**king weird…

    if you knew how stupid you sound when you say “shame on me. I’m a grown woman. Im not a child, you are not a priest, you are not a parent and you can not chastise me like you probably do in your stupid AA meetings.

    AND are you aware how that modality kills people in AA. Shaming and blaming them with you 1930’s religious made up crap.

    I am leaving this up for the world to see your condescending BS that has been going on, that is going on every day in our courts, in AA, in Rehabs, in families, in the parole officers offices…etc.

    Give it a rest!

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    1. aa saves lives plain and simple it was your dauters choice who she dated not aa grow up look in you own mirror im sure you will see the real problem

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      1. AA has a terrible success rate. Look at Eric Earle- 20 years and AA never helped him with his violent temper or his drinking. 95% who go it fails. They don’t fail . AA fails. Its a very old modality that has never been updated, researched or gotten in line with new science about addiction. I’m sorry to say you are wrong Bob-

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      2. Bob k – Here is another murder like Karla’s -http://leavingaa.com/trial-of-aaron-harris-36-for-murder-of-sarah-winters-40-that-he-met-at-an-aa-meeting-in-general-service-area-24-district-14-mason-city-ia-2012-primary-tabs/

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  8. Very sad that so many here want to destroy Alcoholics Anonymous. This program saved my life. However, it is well known that AA is not a “hot bed of mental health”. I tell all my sponsees, no relationships for the first year, or two, or better yet three, and “AA is not a good gene pool for meeting people”. We say principles before personalities. The complete nutburgers have as much a right to recovery as we do. I will tell you a story about when I was three month sober and walked into a meeting and a man who had stalked me, raped me and beat me up was there – he had spent 15 years in prison for it. He stood up, pointed a finger at me and shouted “I’m pissed at you, you bitch!” I still had a protective order against this man, called the cops and they told me they could do nothing about as AA is a public place, I told some of the men at the meeting about this guy and how he terrified me, and they pulled him aside. Later on, I was able to sit through meetings with him there, he left me alone – but I stayed out of his way, my recovery was more important than my fear.

    Think the biggest issue I see with young women, and men coming into AA is that they have “relationship addiction”. I had one sponsee who slept with over 10 guys in my home group in one week. Holy hell. I try to do the best I can sponsoring women, but we carry the message, we don’t carry the damn alcoholic. Don’t be friggin stupid people. I did not have a relationship for 6 years after I got sober, I didn’t borrow money, I didn’t lend money, I didn’t invite total psychos I met at a meeting into my home. Take some damn responsibility for yourselves.

    We did have a sexually predatory guy at one of our meeting “touching” the women – he was “86’d” in short order (kicked out of the meeting). We do police ourselves.

    Please, please don’t take away AA from me. I’d just go back to be a sad ass gutter drunk – probably prostitution (great way to escape 13 stepping, huh, lol)

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    1. HI Sue – we are not out to destroy AA, we are out to Educate and Expose the truth about AA, its meetings and it’s culture. AA is a playground for sexual and financial predators. You know that if you are in AA more then a day. I know that.

      All you have to do is read the comments written here by AA members. You wrote –

      I will tell you a story about when I was three month sober and walked into a meeting and a man who had stalked me, raped me and beat me up was there – he had spent 15 years in prison for it. He stood up, pointed a finger at me and shouted “I’m pissed at you, you bitch!”

      WOW you are saying that this is something someone should tolerate. Thats nuts. I’m sorry but you are badly brainwashed. You should never had to put up with this crap.

      Im sorry this happen to you. Maybe one day you will wake up and realize this is a very very sick dynamic in AA where you attended.

      No one is taking AA away from you . We all have a right to have the same laws in the US will be in AA meetings. Safety polices and procedures need to be created and enacted in AA. Its not 1950 Sue…its 2014.

      I am curious what state this happened in…

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      1. @Massive: re: your last sentence in this post- so am I. Unless her state has odd laws, or there were odd provisions in the restraining order, it doesn’t matter whether the ‘offender’ is in a public place or not, he can’t be within a specified distance of the ‘victim’ ANYWHERE.

        Actually, I had a similar problem- although the individual wasn’t dangerous and hadn’t harmed me- but instead of calling the police I made the idiotic move of simply telling one of the oldtimers he wasn’t supposed to be at the meetings I attended.

        FYI, not all police officers do their jobs. Perhaps not the majority, but some just want to save themselves time and work by brushing people off.

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      1. Jeffrey, you seem to be a man who thinks justice is important. You are campaigning yourself for equal rights for veterans right? Your twitter feed could just as easily be about AA in fact. Just really wondering why you took time out of your morally upright day to find a site for rape victims – many of whom are already very scared – and come along and pass judgement? What’s going on on there? I mean, this is a site for people harmed and hurt in AA, with no where else to go. Why are you here? Really?

        What’s your view of rape in the military? Just curious. Should those women be protected? Should people be held accountable for cover ups and corruption? Is money involved I wonder?

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      2. That’s right I’ve fought genuine injustices not subjective ones like you are creating for personal wants and wishes. My record speaks for itself. Oh I never made a dime helping others even military rape victims et al. Thank God people like you all don’t believe in recovery programs.

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    2. I understand what you mean, we are not out to destroy AA, anyone is free to leave if they want. What is being said is wackos & sickos who PREY on victims for sexual or
      other reasons should be exposed, some groups say you have to tolerate ANYTHING.
      That is total baloney. I called the police more than once during a meeting to get someone who was acting downright dangerous to the welfare of the group the hell out of there. One woman who was really out there was making dates with male members and then calling the police when they arrived at her door saying she was just raped.
      It was punishment just to her story. Rod Serling could not make this up even for twilight zone. Most groups do not police themselves and tolerate violent behavior with stupid reasons like “that’s where they’re at” or just simply blame the victim. Do people have to attend meetings armed for their own protection? I’m grateful someone is brave enough to expose these things to warn people what they might run into.

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  9. Perhaps we should have more laws like in Southeast Asia that allow the execution of drug addicts. They are the ones who are actually committing most of the crimes described above. People in AA who have been sober for many years rarely commit such crimes. But American courts allow lawyers to destroy the moral fiber of our nation. Perhaps they are the worst criminals in America because they send people to AA that don’t want to go and are generally trying to play God in every situation. AA was never intended for people who didn’t want it but lawyers still keep sending them there. I believe a large percentage of these lawyers are on drugs themselves and have no business in position of power. They are worse than Shylock.

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  10. I am not in AA. I have gone to AA. I have read the book. Is there room for improvement?….yes.

    I dealt my specif issues elsewhere as they were non alcoholic. My situation was nearly identical to Karla’s so I probably have a fair understanding of her state of mind. Most likely I too would be dead if I chose not to take to take the advise of the woman from AA. How would any of us know if Karla heard these same words as I but was not yet ready to act on them. Karla got caught in the perfect storm.

    At that point I was still taking opiates, still looking for a man to save me, I was so angry with her at first. I thought who is she to tell me AA could not address my issues. I had half a mind to try and prove her wrong. But that night when I got home that night my boyfriend, a police officer at the time, hit me and I left for the last time. Why did I stay away from him that time and not the 6 other times I left him? Who knows.

    That the case of Karla Brada is far more complex than any of you here are addressing. Karla’s death and the reasons for it are far beyond what any guidelines could have helped.

    I do, however, strongly disagree that AA is just a “stupid cult” as you put it. Statements like that make it very difficult to hear whatever positive and productive opinions you may have.

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    1. You have no idea how I feel having been in AA. You say you were not in it. So who are you to judge me when I call it a cult. I think it is a cult now. 36 years…yea I get to call it a cult.

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      1. Massive Cindy is the stepper we’ve been fending off on the page about Karla’s murder. She’s called this blog a ‘haters’ page and has posted the link encouraging others to post. She is also 13 years in AA and other 12 step groups, posting her sober birthday on facebook but lying about it when debating online. She’s completely insane as you’ve already gathered and the kindest interpretation I can come up with is having suffered domestic abuse herself and then been indoctrinated into AA, she still has a great deal of unresolved material that would be best taken to a qualified therapist instead of being posted as bile online.

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      2. Sadly you are right. Sober and 8 years since last meeting. Nope… no jails, nuthouses or death. Not miserable either. Just grateful I left with my own mind still intact.

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      1. How does this statement assault anyone?

        If I thought guidelines and rules would have prevented this from happening or prevent it from happening again my answer would be a loud and hear I would do everything in my power to push for guidelines. But tell me what makes you think guidlnes will have any effect?

        Elementary schools have laws, guidelines, regulations, counselors on staff, some even have police officers assigned to campus, many have metal detectors and yet we still see murder and sexual assault. Schools spend millions of dollars trying to prevent violence, sexual assault and murder. And yet we see it fail weekly. Not infrequently the very people cleared by back ground checks and hired to teach are the perpetrators. The work place has strict laws, guidelines and regulations and sexual abuse still occurs.

        I think a warning would be better. Say it out loud, say it often AND say it everywhere. This warning should be POSTED EVERYWHERE!

        The male or female standing, sitting, sleeping next to you…..the person teaching your children, the doctor operating on you, the police man coming to save you, the person sitting next to you in AA and the person in line with you in the grocery store, the one nearest to you right now is human and is imperfect. At a moments notice they could fail you, hurt you and maybe even kill. They may do it on purpose, they may do it accidentally but it is a risk.

        ALWAYS PAY ATTENTION, WATCH, LISTEN AND RUN THE MINUTE YOU THINK YOU ARE IN DANGER.

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  11. Go to aa.orge, click “What is AA” you see this description:
    What Is A.A.?
    Alcoholics Anonymous is an international fellowship of men and women who have had a drinking problem. It is nonprofessional, self-supporting, multiracial, apolitical, and available almost everywhere. There are no age or education requirements. Membership is open to anyone who wants to do something about his or her drinking problem.

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  12. I am here as a survior of domestic violence that had a completely different experience in AA than you are saying Karla had AND that experience is quite different than what you are accusing happens in all AA meetings..

    At my second meeting a wonderful woman took me aside and informed that AA would not be able to address all of my issues only help me stop drinking. This woman gave information of a local domestic violence agency and suggested I get off the pain killers. IF AFTER ADDRESSING MY DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND PILL ISSUES I found I still had a problem with alcohol I should call her and she would take me to an AA meeting. –edited.

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    1. Ok. Im glad you got help. We are not saying this happens in all AA meetings. We’re saying just like with the Catholic Church people , the public needed to be warned. A lot of domestic violence cases….get intertwined with AA and these guys get out of jail card free and play the AA card. Thats nice that you found a nice lady there…..and so how does that relate to Karla getting murdered?

      Why do you AA people always say ” well it helped me” ….I didn’t see that” well I never saw boys being molested in my Church as a kid and still it I supported the suing of The Catholic Church and forcing it to address it’s issues with pedophila.

      AA has been warned by me, by Paul C , By Madeline P and many other insiders to address safety and they voted to do nothing. I also know women who are in my film who were molested by AA men who targeted women with 5 year olds. SO again

      Its not about you. Its a much bigger problem. Way bigger. I had lovely wonderful sponsors. I still sometimes got bad advice from them and sometimes great motherly advice. So what….its not about them…its not about me….Karla and Kristine and her 13 year old daughter Sandra Cass and Terry Neely are all dead because they were murdered by men COURT ORDERED INTO AA BY A JUDGE AND THEY ALL KNOW THAT AA IS NOT RUN BY ANY professional…or do they not know this? Well they will when Im done ….

      Have a great day. This website is not for someone who loves AA and was never harmed. If you read the comments you can see that. SO I will also not argue with you more then necessary. Its a not that kind of forum. This is for those seeking help with being harmed. You are defending AA once again. Please go to a PRO AA site and preach to the choir. We already been there, done that, and no longer drink the the koolaid.

      We are about making it safer for those who want to try who still attend AA and or help those who have been harmed and want to leave AA.

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      1. If I thought guidelines and rules would have prevented this from happening or prevent it from happening again my answer would be a loud and hear I would do everything in my power to push for guidelines. But tell me what makes you think guidlnes will have any effect? Elementary schools have laws, guidelines, regulations, counselors on staff, some even have police officers assigned to campus, many have metal detectors and yet we still see murder and sexual assault. Schools spend millions of dollars trying to prevent violence, sexual assault and murder. And yet we see it fail weekly. Not infrequently the very people cleared by back ground checks and hired to teach are the perpetrators. The work place has strict laws, guidelines and regulations and sexual abuse still occurs.

        I think a warning would be better. Say it out loud, say it often AND say it everywhere. This warning should be POSTED EVERYWHERE!

        The male or female standing, sitting, sleeping next to you…..the person teaching your children, the doctor operating on you, the police man coming to save you, the person sitting next to you in AA and the person in line with you in the grocery store, the one nearest to you right now is human and is imperfect. At a moments notice they could fail you, hurt you and maybe even kill. They may do it on purpose, they may do it accidentally but it is a risk.

        ALWAYS PAY ATTENTION, WATCH, LISTEN AND RUN THE MINUTE YOU THINK YOU ARE IN DANGER.

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      2. Go to aa.orge, number 4 in a list is many options is “What is AA” click it you see this description:
        What Is A.A.?
        Alcoholics Anonymous is an international fellowship of men and women who have had a drinking problem. It is nonprofessional, self-supporting, multiracial, apolitical, and available almost everywhere. There are no age or education requirements. Membership is open to anyone who wants to do something about his or her drinking problem.

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      3. GO to court where DUI are being addressed and you will hear all day long people being coerced to AA against their will. The FAA and the medical community is forcing Doctors and Pilots to AA as if it were …..I have no words for it. You are living in a dream world. The stuff written on AA and website and the stuff read at meetings are 50 % lies. Dig deeper. Read more blogs ….

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      4. Go to AA .org how boring..I spent 36 years in that stupid cult. I was a huge AA geek. I won’t read another piece of their propaganda idiot literature unless I have to for my work or helping a person that was harmed. Im free. Thanks but no thanks to reading their literature which btw no body reads it anymore. Its so 1970’s….

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      5. We always know who is court mandated by the signature sheet they pass to the front. Don’t think for one second that AA’s, young and old, walked in from church choir practice thinking it was a social event for normal people.

        Glad I stumbled across all this though. Eye opening that not only are you and your readers mostly convinced that anyone besides themselves are responsible for their actions, but that anyone could brand a sick individuals actions as an added step in AA recovery. (13th step)

        As sad as this murder was, Karla knew full well that she wasn’t soaring with eagles (she didn’t deserve to die no matter how you spin my words). The Earl fellow should have gotten the death sentence.

        This is irresponsible blogging. Your words are better purposed towards identifying perpetrators. Kind of like a website for blacklisting predators, maybe?

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      6. Nobody who is a normal AA member knows this is occurring. Reporters don’t even know. So stop your preaching.

        AA and you as a member who know are responsible. AA is not a special secret something. Your NON profit status makes you have rules to follow. Do your research on Predators…its staggering… many levels it is going there and it is documented that they ALL KNOW !

        We are in a country where free speech is a part of our constitution.

        Do your research . The Catholic Church once thought it was untouchable. AA is the same. Its thinks its a special secret society…well its not.

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  13. Then sue the court system. Make “will not attend AA” as part of parole/probation stipulations for violent or sexual offenders just like “can not own a gun” is always in these stipulations. The courts using AA as a dumping ground is in nearly every statement of the supporters of this suit yet the state courts are not named in the suit. I find that odd.

    I am not saying nor have I said that schools should not do what they do to try to protect their kids. I am however saying it does not work as the shooting in Washington State last week demonstrates.

    I am not saying Karla is to blame for her death. I am however saying that at the point in Karla’s life, which due to court cases is now well documented, she was not listening to anything other than what she hear. I encourage women every day, myself included, to examine our choices in order to grow and improve. That is not the same as blaming Karla.

    Everything we hear is subjectified by our own personal experience. What I hear is not what you may hear and may have very little to do with what was actually said. Just like the game of telephone.

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    1. I guess they could. Maybe someone else will in the future. Good Idea. Barry Hazel did and he won a long fight. http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/08/27/atheist-sent-to-jail-for-rejecting-god-in-blatant-violation-of-the-constitution/

      We are not talking about shootings here. We are talking about AA, which is an unregulated self help, no one in charge , lay person pods of very sick people. A place where many people think is run by a licensed professional..which you and I know its not. And a place where many of the women are told,,,whats your part in it….You need to surrender to get sober? Really…since when is religious conversion good for a mental health issue , or a behavioral issue….like 99% of the time.

      That our Courts at every level are sending violent offenders, sex offenders and every Tom , Dick and Harry and Sally who might be 16 to a f**king AA meeting. Which btw is so religious and so antiquated 1935 ‘s BS that I find it reprehensible that my government is coercing people there for traffic violations. Really…..

      More then this need to change.

      We are not Suadi Arabia… We have a constitution. We have 1st amendment rights.

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      1. If I thought guidelines and rules would have prevented this from happening or prevent it from happening again my answer would be a loud and hear I would do everything in my power to push for guidelines. But tell me what makes you think guidlnes will have any effect?

        Elementary schools have laws, guidelines, regulations, counselors on staff, some even have police officers assigned to campus, many have metal detectors and yet we still see murder and sexual assault. Schools spend millions of dollars trying to prevent violence, sexual assault and murder. And yet we see it fail weekly. Not infrequently the very people cleared by back ground checks and hired to teach are the perpetrators. The work place has strict laws, guidelines and regulations and sexual abuse still occurs.

        I think a warning would be better. Say it out loud, say it often AND say it everywhere. This warning should be POSTED EVERYWHERE!

        The male or female standing, sitting, sleeping next to you…..the person teaching your children, the doctor operating on you, the police man coming to save you, the person sitting next to you in AA and the person in line with you in the grocery store, the one nearest to you right now is human and is imperfect. At a moments notice they could fail you, hurt you and maybe even kill. They may do it on purpose, they may do it accidentally but it is a risk.

        ALWAYS PAY ATTENTION, WATCH, LISTEN AND RUN THE MINUTE YOU THINK YOU ARE IN DANGER.

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  14. This is stupid, AA has no part in what people do. you cant not blame a book or literature for the acts of people. You can sue the court for not locking him up in the first place. ->” Earle who was court ordered to AA over 52 times for 22 years to AA, instead of jail time.”<- 13 stepping is common in AA yes. it happens. but people are grown adults they make the choice to do what they want to. yes men do get taken for money,but they also chose to give the money for their own reasons. More often its the old timers with money helping the new comers with money and are given services rendered for money. There are a lot of damaged women in those rooms that fall back to what they did to make money. their are also sick men who are trying to recover but habits are not easily broken. People tend to play the victim when it suits their need. seems like some of these people need to do their own 12 steps.

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      1. you can post my comment. but i am not a 13 stepper. I am in a relationship and have been for over 2 years. I share about 13 steppin an the effects for both men and women. I advise against it, but like adults that people are they need to learn there own lessons in life. Most people i talk to about 13 stepping tend to still 13 step man or woman. Why is this?? Its simple people have choices and tend to do what they want.

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      2. Publish mine also. I don’t care how old this article is, it pops up in GOOGLE searches –

        “How steppers think”

        I guess it’s terrible to follow through with carrying a message that is very ambiguous about God, and a very positive message!!! “As we understood him” – don’t have to convert to anything.

        Righting wrongs, self-inflection, and community service is terrible?

        This 13th step term is some crazy term someone made up because they can’t accept that their bad decision led to sleeping with the wrong person. “Two sickies don’t make a welly” – don’t have sex with idiots.

        Rape isn’t an AA problem, it’s an individual problem.

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    1. I hardly think Karla is ‘playing’ at anything, seeing as the poor woman is dead. Honestly, you steppers are nearly a century behind the times. Any other organisation dealing with vulnerable adults has policies and procedures for safety. Your post is also ample demonstration why unsupervised, untrained and unqualified sponsors – who know nothing about the cycle of violence, nor about transference and counter-transference – should be let loose on vulnerable women, involving themselves in giving advice in a scenario that requires a skilled professional.

      I don’t think any other organisation tells people in such uncertain terms that their own thinking cannot be trusted and they are powerless, deadly advice to a woman spiralling down the cycle of abuse. No other organisation insists that the backgrounds of other members should be kept anonymous either.

      Predators choose vulnerable women, particularly women with addiction issues, as they know that they will be character assassinated and blamed for their ‘part in it’.

      I applaud Karla’s parents’ bravery – it must be heart breaking to see such awful things written about their daughter.

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      1. girlscout- I don’t think any other organisation tells people in such uncertain terms that their own thinking cannot be trusted and they are powerless, deadly advice to a woman spiralling down the cycle of abuse. No other organisation insists that the backgrounds of other members should be kept anonymous either.

        Well Said! and so true…

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    2. rb-seems like some of these people need to do their own 12 steps.

      We think the steps are stupid and harmful. We disagree with you at all levels. There is no where on the planet where the wolves are brought in where the most vulnerable are. Except for Jerry Sandusky preying on little boys that were already at wrist and vulnerable in foster care etc. He got involved there to be around boys who had no family who cared. AA is filled with lots of people who are already at odds with their ERAL family. And when AA members say “we’re your family now” we love you …till you can love yourself is such bullshit and very cultish.

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  15. It is an insult to hear this argument against AA. As a 4 year recovering alcoholic, I owe my life to AA. Millions of individuals can say the same. If you have spent time in the rooms of AA, you will know this is not what the program is abou . In my 4 years of sobriety, I have never heard of “13 stepping . To blame AA for this tragic murder is irresponsible. All it does is prevent people who are struggling with alcoholism from finding peace and freedom from alcoho . It is not AA’s fault the court ordered this person to AA, it is the judges fault. This slander makes me sick.

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  16. I work in education, where a great many changes have been made since the 1930s.

    AA helps people who are vulnerable in their own way, and as such it cannot and will not survive without equally fundamental systemic updates.

    Yet the fact that it’s such an organisational dinosaur, as anyone who’s ever visited GSO New York knows, inevitably means that the fellowship moves too slowly in such matters.

    I therefore think it’s inevitable that sooner or later AA will be sued out of existence. That’s the bottom line.

    Take the 12 traditions, which by many accounts have served the fellowship well. They’re frequently upheld as a model of libertarian self-governance. Now, however, these principles seem every bit as outdated as the 12 steps.

    “Our common welfare comes first” is basically a utilitarian / consequentialist stance and implies that individual victimisation or disadvantage might somehow be acceptable in instances that are one-off occurrences and don’t challenge the “common welfare” of the majority. This out-dated mode of organisational logic encourages all manner of wrong-headed thinking and unjustifiable outcomes.

    AA’s “one ultimate authority – a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience” is laughable, so full of holes you could drive a team of horses through it without touching the sides, and entirely indefensible in any legal or moral sense.

    Meanwhile the one tradition that matters the most, that which defines the fellowship’s primary purpose and in so-doing sets out what needs to be attended at any and every AA meeting before all the other less important business, is the one you can be sure will be violated almost every time.

    Don’t get me wrong. I’m truly grateful to be sober. However we need to be honest. It’s time to move on.

    “Leaving AA, Staying Sober” at jonsleeper.wordpress.com

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    1. jonsleeper- good point how education has improved since the 1930’s ….so has medicine. The 12 traditions and the preamble are half lies. more later. thank you for your sane and intelligent post.

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  17. This civil case isnt about policy or safety or best interests. It’s about money. To believe otherwise is naive.

    I am pretty familiar with Alcoholics Anonymous policy and tradition and fail to see any culpability on their part. There are some failings but these fall squarely on the Judge who was privy to Earle’s history and in no small part on Mendez herself. If there is policy to change it should be stop sending people to Alcoholics Anonymous in lieu of sentencing. If a convicted felon wants Alcoholics Anonymous he or she can read the book behind bars just as easily as they can on the outside. Alcoholics Anonymous doesn’t ask for them to be sent. It has become routine. So routine in fact that the convicted themselves see Alcoholics Anonymous as a sentence. They don’t want to be there. They just want to be there more than they want to be in prison.

    Mendez’s family and their lawyers don’t give a hoot about your safety of anyone else’s best interests. They are after money that in the end won’t change the fact that their daughter made some bad choices.

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    1. Hi Rick – I have an insiders who’s been trying to affect good change for decades. Sometimes the court for a nonprofit has to be sued so the change will then follow
      I think you need to read the 12 concepts that are located in the AA service manual in there you will find it is culpability and responsibility to the fellowship at large. Those are the words written and there in the service manual also you might want to take a look at the tax return for it also says that it is the custodian the person or the person that watch over the fellowship of large that would be the general service board that would mean the trustees all 21 of them are responsible. Good day !

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  18. YESSSS!!!! That creep being convicted of murder was the best news I’d heard in a long time, and this latest update is the next best news!!!
    I hope Karla’s parents don’t settle for a non-disclosure agreement, because this lawsuit can be the lousy publicity A.A. needs to wake up to what A.A. does to people!!! And it can also bring the facts to the general public who are still clueless about these 12-step programs.

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  19. HI ROb- Welcome! Thanks for posting and yes I think some justice will follow. I do believe that things are going to change. There are any who have remained silent. This is already changing because of al the blogs, Facebook and twitter and even the news papers reporting the truth about AA members and AA court ordering.

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  20. I’m so glad this lawsuit has been filed. Now maybe the slow wheels of justice will turn and more people will see what AA is really all about. One can hope, anyway…..

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    1. I am a bit puzzled by all this. First, AA does not ask for nor want court ordered people. AA operates on a principle of attraction, not promotion or coercion. It is for people who want to be there and who have a desire to stop drinking. The proliferation of court ordered people in AA has diluted the program. That said, there are some who stick in AA after a “nudge from the judge”. AA groups are loath to deny anyone a chance at recovery.

      With all due respect to the family of the young lady who was murdered, AA is not the boy scouts. I’d be surprised if the person sitting next to me in AA DOES NOT have a criminal background. It is up to me to protect myself and not put myself in compromising positions.

      The fact that there is even a term such as “13th” stepping recognises the fact that this happens. Any time you fill a room with human beings, you will have sexual issues. My AA home group has a strong tradition of protecting all members, especially newcomers from inappropriate advances. A new woman who visits our group will be surrounded by other women after the meeting who offer encouragement and help. It is strongly frowned upon for a man to make any kind of approach to a new woman.

      When I entered AA as a single man at the age of 32, I found many attractive women in the program. I was encouraged by males who had been around a while to give myself at least a year of recovery before even thinking about dating & relationships. That gave me time to get to know people and make friends without the pressure of dating. That year completely changed me as a person and changed how I relate to women. When I did start dating at about 1.5 years sober, I enjoyed full, fun, loving relationships and felt true love for the first time in my life. I eventually fell in love with a woman who had 10 years sober in AA. We have been happily married for nearly 15 years.

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      1. hi Bill, Not sure why your puzzled. AA operates on a principle of attraction, not promotion or coercion.

        No it does not. There is so much coercion in AA today it would make your head spin. But you are brainwashed from being in meetings where they read those traditions and Chapter 5 and the permeable. All of which 50 % of those readings are Lies. Sorry to break it to you Bill but its true.

        Thats right AA is not the Boy scouts, but they even got sued and they lost. They had to Change the rules about who could sleep in a tent with other boys. Now its only your DAD Bill…

        Besides, no one is court ordering any criminal to the boy scouts for a drunk driving ticket.

        you say A new woman who visits our group will be surrounded by other women after the meeting who offer encouragement and help.

        Really Bill, then this same women , if she screws up will tell her “what’s your part in it” like same bad parrot in a bad comedy. They will victim blame her and protect the predator like its the 1950’s.

        Ok Bill, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you have a great group. Thats nice. So be it, but…everywhere else on the planet of at 80% of meetings this is going on, so that means something needs to change an something Big needs to be done.

        They are suing as they should and they will force AA to change how they are doing business as their lawyers says.
        Just because children in my Parish in my Church were not being molested……does not mean the Catholic church didn’t need to do anything, Yes they did. Yes I believed all those poor children who were raped and molested. AA is the same way but worse, because courts , rehab and the FAA and the medical world are shoving AA down people’s throats at such a rate AA would be 60-80% smaller if that did not occur. That has to stop at every level. No more coercion and extortion.

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      2. @Bil: I guess it’s another example of how groups are all different.
        Not long after I started attending an A.A. meeting, a guy started making a pest of himself. He didn’t seem particularly dangerous, but developed the habit of following me, waiting for me (on my walking route), and even showed up at my door one day. If he had any sober “time” it wasn’t much, as he’d recently been released from prison and was in a (misnamed) work-release facility. Trying to brush the guy off brought remarks from one of the oldtimer women- she actually pushed me to get personally involved with the guy. The fact that I didn’t want any guy in my life wasn’t as relevant as her attitude and approach being way out of line.
        Perhaps some meetings do go by the unwritten rules, but in this one location oldtimers pressure new people to get into ‘relationships’ and ‘hookups.’

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      3. Hi bill if New York AA doesn’t want a court-ordered people why did they have a woman who is the head of the courts in prison system in California then why was she on the board of Alcoholics Anonymous ?
        This sounds like a conflict of interest to me

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      4. “I’d be surprised if the person sitting next to me in AA DOES NOT have a criminal background.”

        So, it appears that some people are aware of this. Are you folks in AA making new members aware that anybody the meet at one of your meetings may be a predator, so that new members who don’t know about this can properly protect themselves?

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