Old timers (AA members hitting on newcomers) . sick sick sick.

Have you ever heard of this crazy behavior. Well, run as fast as you can away from AA. Confront sexual predator.

Tell your other friends. If no one supports you contact me. You are not alone!! read the thread called Why I left AA on http://www.stinkin-thinkin.com

Both Sexual & Financial Harassment needs to stop. But we have to out those who do. Leave AA and tell the world why you are leaving. So Many people think AA is such a wonderful place. WRONG! It is full of predators of all kinds. And the guys and gals with DD sobriety who are preying on newcomers need to cut it out.

But everyone in AA who sees it happening needs to open their mouths and talk about it everywhere.

The saying “what you hear here, who you see here, let it stay here is a horrible part of the culty talk. Members think .”oh I cant talk about what happens here. This is a special place. NO ITS NOT!

Talk about it. Call the newspapers, make a movie, put it up on youtube, Make a sign, stand outside the meeting place where the creeps are, Call the TV stations. The word is out creeps. WE are talking about it.

You will be outed ASAP!


140 thoughts on “Old timers (AA members hitting on newcomers) . sick sick sick.

  1. I was recommended to call an AA oldtimer when I went to my first meeting. He met me and we went to a meeting in a different town. I went into a treatment program a week later and this guy told me he heard bad things about the program and did not think it was a good idea. He then proceeded to send me random texts early in the morning asking me if I was sober and saying AA phrases. Sometimes he would be asking me for spiritual guidance. He also told me that he had told people at the different AA meetings about me and to keep an eye out for them. So much for anonymity.
    I told my treatment program about it and they said he sounded like a 13 stepper and to stop communicating with him. I told him I found his texts inappropriate and that I was blocking his number. I went to a few more meetings because it was required and I saw him at one of them and just avoided him. But mostly I got the most benefit from things like church and counselling.
    I was very vulnerable as a new comer and it irks me that he thought he was doing a good thing by saying all of that and texting me at odd times. It bothers me that it took me so long to clue in. I thought that was what to expect from AA. It also bothers me that he is recommended by health officials as the guy to call in that area. I suppose I should be thankful that he left me alone when I told him to.

    I found that the talk at meetings was pretty negative and the focus on time sober instead of inner healing was a downer. I also did not feel safe because some of the men gave me the creeps. I told someone in my family and they said they knew of this guy and that he was known for saying inappropriate things. Now my mom is going to AA meetings and is friends with him. I told her about his behaviour and she does not care. I guess this is where I practice the serenity prayer- but I am hurt by her lack of concern. It is sad because I thought since she was seeking help that our relationship would improve. When I went into treatment she was angry at me for my alcoholism and would say snide remarks that showed a lack of compassion. When she started going to meetings she was nicer to me and we had some good times together. But I relapsed and now things are unpleasant between us. I get suicidal when I relapse. I am seeking counselling.

    Something else I found bizarre was the big deal that was made of being invited to the meeting after the meeting. The old timers go for coffee after and only invite certain people. I happened to go to the same place as them and they acted like I was invading their territory. But again, whatever works for different people. I am glad to read about the experiences others have had and know that I am not alone. I have also been to meetings that were very rewarding. I am going to check out the alternatives recommended.


  2. There is something that bugs me about this issue. Thou no one should be taking advantage of new ladies in the program. My personal experience is the program today isn’t the program of even 10 years ago. And my opinion is the 13th step happens more with newcomer ladies and guys coming out of prison or guys who have no real recovery then those who have quality recovery. This in my opinion drives more newcomers out the door or to relapes. Its kinda bizarre some want to focus on one group of people in the program only. I say no one should be 13 stepping a new girl. But I guess in this day and age the real villan is the guy who has proved his recovery etc, but in our sick society that rewards bad behavior, I guess the guy who is drunk or conning out of prison is acceptable?


    1. hi Allan- Welcome ! I agree. It wall bad. No one should be preyed on in AA or 12 step. They need policies , procedures and regulations and the courts need to stop dumping everyone there. But Drug Court is one big AA circus and circular recidivism rat wheel.


  3. ( Snip ) old post deleted.

    Johnny- If we disclosed all the creeps that are old timers and members of AA and how many criminals, sex offenders and scam artists who ripped people off for millions, your head would spin… and we wouldn’t care if someone sold a sexy outfit or two. Also …there are many in the Anti AA arena who never had trouble with alcohol , they are not like you are. They are regular citizens who actually can imbibe safely and normally. Now move along because it is apparent to me you are not a victim and you are not looking for help.


  4. I thought I was the only one.I am black young female working as cashier with not much education. When I came to aa life was good I stoped drinking I ve been there for 2 years life was great. But not all roses I was being gibven a lift by this old timer whome after my first year thought we should celebrate by having sex. When he realise I wasn’t giving in to what he expecting he started talking about me to other members things like I was a whore and a bitch. Changed meetings came to another group thought this one was different another old timer well this one he turned out to a human from hell planet. Manipulate me to buy he grocery put petrol in his car do him sexual favours. Day by day I gave in but I kept on telling him I thought the whole thing was wrong he told me that I had to give something back to aa. Well it went on until he started being so involve in my life and threatning me at times . I had to change meetings again. So my wish is to find the strenght and go back to this meeting and talk about this people who pretend to be alcoholics while they not. They have other sickness that they not dealing with and aa is protecting them


    1. Go to a meeting with someone you trust and talk about the abuse of the fellowship and how it was not helping you stay sober. Stick with those who come to you and offer support


    1. Caroline- I think there are many problems with AA besides the predatory behavior. At first I thought it was just the 13 stepping and sexual predation, but after reading the http://www.orange-papers.org for 2 weeks back in 2009, I began to change my mind. Then I was introduced to Paul C an AA Board Member who wanted AA in NY and as a whole to address the sexual predation problem . He experienced much resistance. I can send this memo to you.

      Then so much insanity happened that blew open what I think about AA now. I think all the readings are antiquated and 50 % of them are not true. Eventually I came to believe that AA in many ways is more harmful then good , today in 2012.

      What do you think?


  5. H good for you. Its time for big changes in addiction and alcohol problems. Just contact Jim CHristopher from SOS and he will send you are starter kit and you can start a meeting. Jim is a great guy and really respects other people’s opinions.

    you can reach me privately at makeaasafer@gmail.com


  6. Hi H-
    Welcome. Can you read AMy Lee Coys book FROM DEATH DO I PART. AA is a rather old paradigm. I would check out Smart Recovery Website or even start a Women for Sobriety Meeting or an SOS meeting which stands for Secular Organizations for Sobriety.

    I can send you literature that you can use for your meeting. Shall I? Let me know. Many of the good people are leaving the meetings.


    1. A few of us are starting a womens group tomorrow; I would love to see what you have on both meetings as Secular Organisations for Sobriety also appeals. My husband likes Pagans in Recovery as he is not alcoholic and would like a meeting that has wider appeal but Pagan sounds a little strong for me at the moment. This summer we are “inviting” recovering female addicts to join us for the summer picnic meetings until we get an idea of what most of us need and want.
      I will look up the book you mention on Amazon.
      Thank you.


  7. Really great site thank you.
    I am just interested in 13th stepping, well how to stop it. We are about to set up a woman’s group so we can feel safe. The bullying, harassment, 13th stepping and some sort of “transferred anger at all women” that some males act out on is terrifying at best and lethal at worst. I have been to meetings in the Middle East where men and woman are separated and for the woman the recovery is kind and loving and that is what we need. Most women don’t walk into the rooms with the ego that a man does and the book itself spends too long explaining that your ego is the problem. However there are great parts in the book that help me to live and if we can just get male egos out of the way we hope to be able to take the good. I feel the need for a more compassionate approach to recovery. I don’t want to leave AA; here in Spain groups in English are hard to find and the support of most groups is good. It seems that a small number of men create the problem but I always wonder why the good guys – there are many – don’t just tell the bad to quit behaving like animals and if they persist beat the shite out them – in the interest of everyone. This always leads me to believe that the men do not give a damn because what do all the “good guys” do when this abuse takes place?


  8. Alex,

    Wanted to add to this comment: “”I hung out with wise, insightful friends and associated with “no one” in AA.””

    That worked out very well because the AA’s that I had been associating with quickly disappeared and did not want anything to do with me.


  9. Alex,

    Im very please to know that i could help you in some way and your sharing reminds me how far ive come since leaving AA. Thankyou!! I care because It really bothers me to see some as young as you (i believe you said you were in your 30’s); possibly fearful to leave AA, when it appears they want to. Please dont let fear keep you there for another 20 plus years like I did. Keep working on learning to trust your instincts.

    I too can relate to apologizing when not at fault. I was the youngest 4 girls with a rage aholic for a father. It took me until I was in my 50’s to realize that I would apologize when they were at fault; in order to keep peace. They were like my father who was to proud to admit when he was wrong. I know now that I was fortunate enough to Inherit my mothers personality.

    Your version of chapter 5 is excellent. I think it might be helpful for you to read that every day for awhile. Also, your counselor seems to be giving you good advice. Forgive me but Im a little puzzled by a couple of the following statements you made:

    “I know how the program works and appreciate that you get out what you put in: (meaning the program)

    ” I listened to step 4 again on my way home from work tonight and realised that I’ve made some mistakes due to not working that part of the program”

    Im unable to relate this to my feelings when I wanted the strength to leave AA. I never could see the benefit of the steps for “me”. So that was not an issue. Sadly, as I said, FEAR kept me going back. However, it sounds to me like they might have convinced that your just not working the program thoroughly. It’s understandable if you still question yourself about that. Listening to what they say there 4 days a week can have a huge influence on you. Also, want to say that I did not stay for a period as long as 4 years in all of the times I attended.

    I am very respectful of the fact that you should not leave AA until you are ready. This is just a suggestion: A couple of months before I stopped going to meetings, I backed off of reading the big book, the daily word and all of the literature. It wasn’t too difficult for me because it all pissed me off every time I read it and I could not stop analyzing and finding fault. It was driving me insane and I was concerned about my blood pressure. 🙂 I started reading good books.

    There is so much more I would like to say but I have to close. Work Tomorow!!
    Id like to offer some suggestions later, on how I spent my time after leaving AA. I was broke, which is challenging but I was happy. Even with a lack of funds, there are always things to do that are much more productive, than sitting in meetings. I didnt have a computer and I didnt have my friends on the blog until 8 months afterwards. I hung out with wise, insightful friends and associated with “no one” in AA. Hang in there Alex, things will get better. Talk to you later. 🙂


  10. Alex- this site was inspired to stop 13 stepping in AA. From what I can tell it has evolved to include many issues with Alcoholics Anonymous. Your postings here have been appreciated and hope to see you stay in touch.
    I would check out SMART,they have online meetings as well, that are run by trained facilitators.


  11. God, it’s so nice to get some feedback.


    That was a great post for me, thanks. I am definitely what you would call a thinker – takes one to know one eh?  What you say about me reminding you of yourself 15 months ago, gives me hope like I’m not going crazy or something. That there is a life after AA and that it’s ok to question things like this. I don’t know ANYONE in the rooms that would encourage me to continue along with this line of enquiry. I’d probably get pulled up on what I’m not doing etc.

    Like you, I always apologised to people as a drinker. But the difference between me and you is that I did it too much. i.e. apologised when an apology wasn’t due. Which tells a bit of a story in itself don’t you think?

    When I did my amends, people wouldn’t hear of it and told me to stop worrying etc.

    I liked what you said in your third post about learning to trust your instincts. This appeals to me greatly, because all I’ve ever been told in AA is that our best thinking got us drunk etc. It will be so nice to move away from all of that destructive nonsense.

    In response, I just wanted to write a little bit more about why I’m writing on this blog – for your benefit and others.

    I’ve been on anti-depressants for two and a half years and anxiety medication for the same amount of time. Not sure whether you got that from a previous post of mine or not.

    Anyway, since starting on the meds, I’ll admit that I haven’t worked the programme as hard as I could have done. The medication has been very effective, and to be honest it’s been nice to have a break from the symptoms of depression and anxiety that I had to deal with when I was sober the first time. I managed not to drink for 17 months then.

    That time around though, I had to do quite a lot of different things to survive daily living. I was writing in a diary every night, attending a lot of meetings, was doing my best to admit everything I could to people in the fellowship in person and over the phone. I was also trying to help others by carrying the message, (I actually sponsored someone for a month before I relapsed) whilst trying to hold down a stressful job that I ended up having to take have two periods of short term sick from.

    Looking back, I simply wasn’t strong enough and had had bad guidance.

    My sponsor, even though it was me that had picked him, didn’t have that good a grasp of the programme. He didn’t pluck out my defects of character or give me any real education on steps 6, 7, 8 & 9. “Do one step (eg. Step 5) and I’ll throw in four for free” we’re his exact words I think.

    My second sponsor did though, who I started work with after my relapse in May 2009. In the end, his approach was far too dogmatic for my liking, so I asked the person I wanted originally in 2007, who has been my sponsor since.

    I went to AA out of desperation initially, not because I genuinely believed that I was alcoholic. I’d managed to stay sober for 8 months on my own between Nov 2006 and July 2007, and after a really bad time with my drinking for a few months afterwards, managed to get sober again by going to AA in December later that year. I wasn’t sure whether I was alcoholic or not, but got a lot from the sense of community that came with AA and preferred it – as oppose to trying to stay sober on my own.

    I don’t think I’d accepted that I couldn’t drink responsibly deep down throughout those first 17 months, and curiosity got the better of me in the end before my eventual relapse.

    As things are today, I attend about four meetings a week and am secretary again at my homegroup, 3 months into a year long term.

    I know how the programme works and appreciate that you get out what you put in. But for me, there have been too many negative off-sets of having been a member for the last four years.

    I feel guilty if I’m not doing what is suggested; feel bad when I’m having a moan in the room (we are there to carry the message to the newcomer right?) and feel dumb when I call my sponsor at these times and he says “Well, it’s obviously something you’re not doing”. As you’ve mentioned Amy, my self esteem has really suffered. How are we supposed to remember to do everything, or thoroughly follow the AA path when we’ve got real life to be getting on with as well?

    They should re edit the part of chapter 5 which says “Rarely have we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path” and replace it with, “We have seen so many people try and fail at getting this programme and the statistics are frightening. We would strongly suggest that you explore all other avenues of treatment before getting yourself into a programme that will make you feel like you’ve done something wrong most of the time. This will destroy your sense of self and make you question everything in your life to such a point that you will be incapable of a making a decision for yourself. By joining this fellowship, you are at risk of becoming paralysed by so many suggestions to the point that you will never feel like you are making any progress, which in turn will exacerbate any deep rooted fears that you are sick, hopeless or mentally ill.”

    I just feel like I would be lying to people at the moment by “carrying this message” and am considering not doing a couple of chairs that I’ve agreed to do.

    It’s time to make a change. I appreciate that it will have to be a steady transition and will need to be replaced with SMART or something else, but I’m willing to do whatever it takes to leave AA and stay sober.

    My fears at the moment are of how I’ll feel not seeing people I know in the rooms. There are plenty of good eggs that I get on with. But for me, it’s like staying in a bad job because some of the people are nice. Doesn’t make sense does it?

    I listened to step 4 again on my way home from work tonight and realised that I’ve made some mistakes due to not working that part of the programme. I felt so stupid and angry with myself. I could have made things so much easier. But now I’ve had a chance to vent off and gain some perspective, I just think it’s sad that reading something like this could propel me into such a state of self condemnation.

    It’s like, the more I invest in the AA literature, the more I feel like I haven’t done enough. That I only have myself to blame, if I’m feeling an emotion or something when it’s just a part of life sometimes. To be honest, I think I’m doing pretty well at making sense of all this as I’ve started to wake up to some of the damaging effects of becoming an AA member.

    They say it takes time in AA. Give time time etc. But the truth of the matter is, it takes lots of time in AA because they are just a bunch of drunks and not qualified professionals, something that so many of the people who go to the rooms really need. It’s like the blind leading the blind if you ask me.

    Recently, my counsellor was quick to dispel a myth of mine that I didn’t know who I was, by saying that I knew myself a lot better than most people will ever know themselves – and I trust her. She’s right. I’m so swallowed up with this AA trade of thought that I find it hard to give myself any credit.

    If someone was reading this for the first time and had a drink problem, do you really think they would go to AA to solve it?

    Anyway, that’s enough said about that.


    Thanks for the links. I wasn’t abused as a child thankfully, but am hoping to find something useful in Cynthia Perkins – I’m sure I will. Sober 23 years on her own – wow.

    I did get sober on my own, you’re right. I managed to do it before, but staying sober was the real problem. I hope I can find a tangible alternative to AA in the long run and thank-you for your words of encouragement.


    Thank you for your input also. It’s been a great help having this blog here to vent and to be made aware of some alternatives. I’m aware that this is a blog for 13th stepping and that I’ve used it as a way of getting a lot of un-related stuff off my chest.

    I’m probably going to need something like this to communicate with the likes of yourself, Amy and Carolyn while I move on from AA. If there’s a blog/forum better suited to my ramblings I would be grateful if you could suggest some good ones.

    All the best



    1. I created http://www.leavingaa.com when http://www.stink-thinkin.com was taken down from posting. I needed a place to talk and still do like you, Carolyn & AMY. There are some great folks on the orange papers forum but there are some trolls there. http://www.orange-papers.org/forum x steppers is good too.

      I don’t allow trolls here. We have had a few but I will ban them and edit their posts if they are rude. This needs to be a safe place for us to express what we are going through.

      Thanks for your great posts!


  12. Amy,

    Now that is what a share should be like……HELPFUL! Great job =)


    Here is a site Amy sent me; it is great. Click on AA Flaws and Child abuse. Cynthia Perkins tells her story, what happens to an abused child’s brain and how AA doesn’t work! She has been clean on her own 23ish years and has a Masters in Counseling etc. It’s a long read but well worth the time. It answered a lot of questions that plagued me, while trying to work a program that doesn’t work (5% success rate in U.S.; statistic provided covertly by AA themselves).


    I hope you find this helpful. I believe she discusses deprogramming (undoing the harm) from AA. Remember You got sober on your own.!!! No one sprinkled fairy dust on you when you walked into AA, if so we wouldn’t have “relapses” now would we? Think about it; how come some people stay sober 30 days or 30 years? We made a decision to quit (some do have help from their higher power) drinking. Walking into a meeting didn’t magically do it for anyone. I take credit for my sobriety and if AA had that fairy dust, the success rate would be through the ceiling.
    Good Luck


  13. Alex,

    I would just like to say one more thing tonight. Realizing all of the things that I mentioned and being convinced that AA was never a fit for “me”, was a slow process. I understand now, I could not begin that process until I stopped going to meetings and leaving myself wide open to what was said there. Ive learned to trust my instincts in the future. Sharing experiences with people on sites like this for the past 9 months, has helped validate my feelings. I needed that.


  14. Alex,

    Ive read all of your comments and I can relate to everything you are saying. Ive spent a considerable amount of time trying to come up with the right words to say to you; because I see myself 15 months ago, before working out the distorted thinking and confusion that AA brainwashing created in my mind. I spent 30 yrs going in and out of the program (more time out than in). Each time I became more confused about who I was; my self esteem was very low and I felt hopeless. Until, I got angry and very depressed because i was tired of all the slogans, group think, contradictions and pat answers for everything I would question. It made no sense to me to turn over control of my life and depend on a stranger (sponsor) to help me resolve my private individual issues.

    One thing Ive learned about myself is that I am a thinker and from what you have said here, I believe you are too. Being a thinker is a good quality in a person but I realize now, one of the reasons AA was not a good fit for me.
    In my opinion, the fact that you are questioning the usefulness of AA to your well being, shows that you are thinking very clearly.

    I could not imagine being a life time member and attending meetings. I felt like It was impossible to be true to myself and share because there was always pressure to think like everyone else. Personally I did not feel the need to agonize over people I had harmed and apologize in writing. For the most part, if i harmed someone when I was drinking and remembered; 🙂 I apologized immediately afterwards. Anyone who truly cared about me just wanted to see me gain the confidence I deserved and love myself. Yet I was made to feel guilty and considered in denial because I could not see how that would make me feel better about myself.

    I disagreed with calling myself an alcoholic everytime I opened my mouth to speak. I thought it was insane the importance that was put on sobriety time and the hierarchy that existed in AA. Length of time sober has nothing to do how much the “Individual” has grown or the decency of their character. When you referred to your 2 years, 8 months of sobriety, as “not that sober”, Im guessing you got that impression from AA. You should only be proud of that and never made to feel like your below someone with more time. That really pushes my buttons because I recall being 1 yr sober and referred to as a “Sober Baby”. How demeaning is that. They say in the program; “dont look for the differences, look for the similarities”. Well, I had a difficult time comparing myself to the person with 20 yrs sober, who said that to me. Sorry for rambling on longer than I expected to. Thanks you for sharing your experience because it helps me.


      1. My pleasure. I have to confess; that took me long a time because I was trying very hard, without getting to wordy, to summarize the extent of the harm that I believe AA can cause with their BS. Alex post really motivated me to expose the truth. If what I said offends anyone who reveres AA, too bad. That’s my experience and part of my problem with the organization and it was spoken from the heart.


  15. Just wanted to chip in about the 13th Stepping thing. It happens in the UK too. A woman I know has just relapsed after a year sober. She got involved with someone in the fellowship when she was no more than 3 months in. He’s been sober just as long as I have (2 years, 8 months this time round) so wasn’t that sober himself at the time – but should have known better.

    Thankfully, this is a rare case where I come from.

    I’ll admit that I’ve been attracted to women at AA before, I mean I wouldnt be human otherwise right? But wouldnt dream of making an advance on any of them in the rooms and always conduct myself accordingly. I am absolutely dead against approaches made by men on vulnerable women in the fellowship. It’s just so wrong on so many levels its unbelievable.

    I dont know if there’s anything we can do about it. Some of my female friends in AA joke about some of the approaches they’ve had when we have a coffee after a meeting, they are a good few years sober and know how to handle it, but this still doesnt make it right.

    What concerns me most with this kind of thing, is that its bound to happen if sick men and women are thrown together at various stages of recovery in the rooms. I think people have a responsibility of care to themselves and others and if I see it going on won’t be too afraid to take it more seriously now that I’ve read this blog.

    You hear a reading at some meetings that states “this group doesnt tolerate bullying or harrasement” but is it ever enforced?

    I will never get involved with someone in the fellowship myself know matter who it is. It’s an important boundary of mine that I like to keep AA and that aspect of my life seperate, but there are lots of people that will. Its just so selfish, they are out for themselves and dont care if the other person relapses. It makes me sick.

    Whatever hapenned to meeting someone using old conventional methods ie. through friends at BBQ’s etc.
    Why do people have to abuse the fellowship for that?

    Anyway, I’ll move on..

    Carolyn, I’m encouraged by what you were saying about resolving your childhood trauma using EMDR/Therapy and how that helped you deal with things without having to go to AA. I’ve done about 7 years of counselling on and off and am seeing one at the moment. I’ve read up on EMDR and it sounds like a very appealing option when I get the cash together.

    Its a firm belief of mine, that my drink problem was born out of a tendancy to avoid conflict at all costs and to keep everyone else happy (at the expense of my own feelings) after my parents divorced when I was 8. I shut down emotionally at such a young age, because I didnt feel that my parents were equiped enough emotionally to handle the way I felt – I was too afraid to be myself or get angry with my dad, so internalised alot, ending up feeling responsible for him and everyone else and buried my head in the sand about everything. I wanted anything for a quiet life. Trouble is, I didn’t know who I was anymore. I couldnt be who I truly was (because I didnt know who I was), for fear of disaproval or rejection which wasnt healthy. It was really damaging infact, and I can see now how its scuppered my growth into adulthood from adolesence.

    AA helped me to recognise that it was my thinking that had to change, which I agree with. But, I don’t know if I want this for the rest of my life. I don’t think AA’s healthy for me anymore. I got alot from a reading on step 4 this morning at a meeting, partly because its something I’ve skimped on of late. But the reason I’ve skimped on it I guess, is because I want to get on with my life.

    I’m willing to work on my problems, but it just feels like too much working all these steps when I all I want to do is start bettering myself careerwise and enjoying my life. Having to check my thinking and being humble etc. It depresses me reading the just for today card, which say’s stuff like “just for today, I will be agreeable, I will not find fault with anything” etc etc. What kind of a person am I going to become? What will be left of me? Whatever hapenned to just being myself??

    I believe in keeping good counsell. It makes sense. But I want to be myself. I want to get angry sometimes. Every body else does.

    I’ve lost control of my ability to drink properly, I’m not going to make any bones about that – I wouldnt fancy giving it another go if I’m honest. There just has to be a better way that’s all.

    SMART recovery sounds like a great alternative having looked at their website. To think that I might only have to attend for two years sounds great. I could actually focus on getting on with the rest of my life without fear or worry of having to label myself an alcoholic or keeping it underwraps when I meet new people and partners in future. It feels like such a ball and chain sometimes.

    Thanks for pointing SMART out to me MASSIVE and for this blog


    1. alex-your welcome:)

      Smart is great so I highly recommend you trying it, but at the recent meeting I attended I found that even the new attendees there have a strong opinion about addiction and alcoholism, (boy do I hate this word now) which honestly I don’t believe many are really alcoholic. All the labeling and the non scientific nonsense rhetoric makes it hard for me to listen to someone with 3 days, 3 weeks, or 9 months, only when they talk AA speak and they think it’s fact. The leader had to stop some attendees advice on medication. Surely an AA not a SMART reaction! But this was a Smart meeting.

      AA has infiltrated our society at such a deep level that if in a TV show they mention sober or a meeting wink wink…they assume they mean AA. Oh what a big job we have changing the face of addiction.

      Sometimes I think of walking away from all this. The Blogs, my blogging, my film, the activism. Saying “who really cares” “its too big of a problem”. I guess that happens when I’m too tired.

      ALso ALex I appreciate your post and if you continue to go to AA you can look out for the vulnerable ones and that is a good thing.
      Take care.


      1. Why doesnt anyone mention the females who attend AA and use the same tatics they used to get men to buy them drinks as they do to take advantage of lonley old men.


  16. It seems like Hooper has experienced what most in AA already have-no a member who committed suicide.
    This is so sad and preventable in many cases. AA is not in a position to sponsor suicidal people.In many cases they create the desire to want to commit suicide.


  17. Hooper,

    Thanks for your nice response. Looks like you are able to take what you need in the program and see the problems with the rest. Congratulations on your successful happy marriage. Have a nice day. (-:


  18. dstone,
    Why didn’t you just ask for help? A sign of true intelligence & courage (which I believe you possess) is to know when to ask for help! We all have a story (horrific & not alcohol related). I treated you that way, because 1) the way you were ranting, bullying and treating us like a know-it-all-be all that ends all-projecting spoiled brat) 2) it would either bring you around to the reason of your visit or 3) send you on your way. By the way, I live my life best suited for me and not to accommodate someone else’s insecurities. “To thy own self be true”, on AA’s coin (AA plagiarized most of it’s written work), however that is sorely frowned about in the rooms and by sponsors.

    Eleanor Roosevelt said, “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” The truth also plays a factor in your comment, “CarolynK dont act superior to those who are not as educated as you”. When you acted the way you did; all fair in love and war. You provoked it; I protect my friends and this site.

    People come here for help and the crap you were slinging wasn’t an attribute to our cause and is indicative of the AA mentality which we do Not promote on this site, conversely you did help us show new members that we WILL NOT let them be abused here by anyone, like in the rooms.

    You said, “AA is full of crazy people!!! Maybe ya’ll aint so bad after all.” I have been abused by these “Crazy” people physically, sexually and verbally; the same ones who profess “You are the most important person in this room”-then they would grope, sloganize or shun me for thrills or for my individualism/independent thinking. Many of these people are court ordered felons.

    You wanted to hear someone say they had “POWER” (btw, power comes from within) nothing is more powerful or empowering than to say, “That is crap and I’m taking my life back”!!!! Whatever they think, their predictions or wish upon myself or life; doesn’t matter. I’m here to live a life that is conducive for my values, convictions, morale and happiness. No matter what a sponsor says/orders they CANNOT make you happy, successful or change your course in life….THAT IS UP TO YOU!!!

    You also commented, “You have knowledge of so much AA stuff.” I tried to work and unworkable program and needed to know the nature of the beast. I have seen it, left it and fight it. I needed to know what I was up against.

    I personally have settled my drinking problem once I addressed my childhood trauma. I was drinking not to feel the pain and AA doesn’t help in that area. AA is a band-aid to many emotional issues, childhood trauma etc, band-aids stop sticking and fall off-just like AA. You don’t have to act like a bully and come here kicking and screaming, because we have it and you don’t. The secret is getting out of AA, getting a good childhood trauma therapist (doing that work, which is hard, you have to feel the pain and resolve issues-not fun but worth it), go to Smart meetings (or the equivalent) where one gets affirmations not brow beaten, they don’t concentrate on the problem and focuses on solutions and your future! You are encouraged to live the life YOU want to live not what an unqualified sponsor tells you.

    Finally, AA rips you apart with the steps, leaves you vulnerable with unattended open wounds that are taboo to address (you get: “It is what it is, Do you want to be happy or right, What is your part in it, Pray on it” etc-all to shut one up) and then send you to the lions. We help with the wounds and questions. WE HAVE GOOD PRODUCTIVE LIVES and MORE TIME TO ENJOY LIFE (not in meetings all the time), however, it does take time to deprogram (undo the harm from AA-it’s strong,however we are a testimonial that it can be done).

    Massive had an excellent suggestion to take a motivational class/seminar by Tony Robbins (he’s great or the likes). When you feel more empowered (within yourself) you won’t have to lash out unnecessarily and life will be easier.

    Good Luck dstone
    Wouldn’t this have been a better way to start?
    If you do come back, ditch the obnoxious hooper and come back as you.


  19. Ok Amy. Maybe this will help your blog… Yes I see Guys stalk new girls in AA. Some of the ladies who have been around for a while try and worn the newcomers. There are some real screwed up people in AA. I know several guys who will not go to mens meeting because they want to seek new victoms. Some guys are like wolves praying in new girls. they are hurting. Some of the guys are real smooth too. Girls need to careful in AA or seek other help. This blog has helped me realize something maybe I have over looked in the past. I didnt date but two girls in the program and i didnt date for almost 3 years. before that I tryed to get sober and I dated a couple girls in the program. I was 3months sober and they had many years of sobriety. I kept getting drunk back then. ( today I have been married for a while and happy) Some of the men in AA creep me out because they will 13 step you in a heart beat if they can get to you. Many People die who get taken advanage of in early sobriety. I know a girl who killed herself because she was heart broken. she actually 13 steped a guy who broke up with her. He now has to live with that and he talks about it. Most all of the 13 stepping is pervert men who I believe hang out around AA to hook up with confused young girls. they dont care a bit about the newcomes well being. There are some really good guys too. So there you have it. 13 stepping is alive and well in AA today I know for a fact. I have never given much thought to other ways to get sober but it seems that the women on this blog have good intentions and could really be helpful to others. Thanks for putting me in line Ladies sometimes I need a little guidance. Hey Carolyn… My bad. If its ok I will continue to report and up-date the inside scoop of the sickos in AA. Hey dstone doesnt seem to bad maybe he just needs a little awakening too 😉


  20. Hooper-

    I grew up very poor in a highly dis-functional family and im not an educated person but that doesnt mean Im not intelligent and cant determine right from wrong. It doesnt take an education to recognize the fact that your last comments to Carolyn were completely out of place and threatening.
    Be careful !


    1. Amy,
      Thank you my dear friend. Hooper see how niceties work and communicatively result in more positive and helpful interactions. I love it “RIGHT FROM WRONG”!!

      What a novel concept, however, that isn’t AA approved literature and I’m sure Eileen or Phylis at GSO would turn it down.


  21. AA is full of crazy people!!! Maybe ya’ll aint so bad after all. CarolynK dont act superior to those who are not as educated as you. It will even make you look smarter than you are. Growing up is hard when you had so much mess in your life at age 8. But i will try.


  22. Hooper –
    As Carolyn said- why are you even here. This blog is clearly for people who want empowerment for all members and help with those harmed who might want to leave AA and are in search of a comforting community that won’t take advantage of them or make fun of them.


  23. hopper.
    As I look back at previous entries, I find a similar threatening and illogical interaction with a dstone. I gave him oh a you, the same facts back on Oct. 31, 2011 and you’re surprised to get the same stats today. Grow up and move on or behave yourself.


  24. hooper,
    I addressed all your issues in your blog and if you are uncomfortable and unfamiliar with the truth supported by facts; then you either brush up on it or live with it. Contempt of facts is NONACCEPTANCE. If you didn’t want honest replies why ask????

    “You have knowledge of so much AA “stuff”. It’s like you study it.” hooper, I make sure I know exactly what I’m talking about before I utter a word. Something you may take heed.

    All your sexual references and threats has me believing that I hit a nerve with your predatorial playground. It wouldn’t be an issue if it weren’t important or a point of contention. Again, what is the purpose of big ol Hooper (I have found that guys whom announce that; it is predominantly false and disappointing) visiting this site. You have spewed many accusations and questions, yet not pleased with the truth.

    If you talk to AA members in this capacity; I hardly find it helpful or appealing. Personal opinions are find as long as they aren’t portrayed as truth. “ME THINKS THOU PROTEST TOO MUCH”.

    I guess a woman who POSSESS the inner strength (POWER) to say “NO”, standup for her Rights, Freedom and Spirituality amidst a cult like AA and abusive members just as yourself would frighten the hell out of you.

    I take threats very seriously; contact GSO, so I would choose your words and thoughts very carefully in any future communication on this public blog. Copious records are kept. As for step 14, that will be reported along with your other threats.


  25. I think you scare me more than a [snip]. The way you write and lash-out is like a woman writting from a [snip]. You seem to be a intellectual train wreck. you have knowledge of so much AA “stuff”. Its like you study it. Are you mad no one asked you out in AA. Do you want me to ask you out? Hey CarolynK, you want big Hooper to [snip] I bet you … who gives a flip if AA has a 1% success rate. O-yea you do. Go back to filling your head with more crap knowledge. I dont write for AA. My personal thoughts are AA seems to help alot of people. You seem to try and hurt alot of people. [snip]Send me your [snip] I know … Hooper can show you. Call me…

    hooper- you are being moderated. Cut the crap. Or I will ban you.


  26. hooper,
    You are correct, no one should go to football games, church or “anywhere because of sexual issues”; THAT IS IF YOU CAN’T KEEP YOUR HANDS TO YOURSELF-YOU SHOULD GO TO JAIL!

    I have a rhetorical question, why did you visit this site?? It clearly states “Stop13steppinaa” not HOW TO or WHERE to, but STOP13steppinaa. Why are you so surprised of the content in this blog and that persons are vehemently trying to defend their Rights. Does your sponsor know you have been lurking here or are you one of the infamous predators that is worried your playground is being eliminated or that you have been named on this Blog??

    Crime is committed everywhere, everyday and by all gender’s and socioeconomic backgrounds. We have laws in the United States to protect us from the evil that lurks everywhere and if you expect for one second that I will succumb to threats, pressure or crime and stay indoors (as you so eloquently purposed) you have not met a Woman who has had enough from you uneducated, opportunistic slime backs. There are people in and out of AA that do take their God given rights as a U.S. citizen very seriously and want and expect to live life to it’s fullest. THAT IS POWER…NOT LETTING AA, CRIMINALS OR UNINFORMED PEOPLE CONTROL MY LIFE. You should give it a try.

    Your blog is an incoherent mess. Once you get an education (I highly recommend an English course, Statistics and Empirical research course), then start to read without your sponsor on the success rate of AA verses non treatment. You will ascertain they are both the same in the U.S. @ 5%; if you call that successful then you will be very easy to satisfy in mediocre land.

    I will do your first exercise in research for you:

    Source: American Medical Association Wikipedia/Encyclopedia
    Content: Bill W. declines he calls alcoholism a disease

    “The term “alcoholism” is commonly used, but poorly defined. The WHO calls alcoholism “a term of long-standing use and variable meaning”, and use of the term was disfavored by a 1979 WHO Expert
    Committee. The Big Book (from Alcoholics Anonymous) states that once a person is an alcoholic, they are always an alcoholic, but does not define what is meant by the term “alcoholic” in this context. In 1960, Bill W., co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), said:

    We have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease entity. For example, there is no such thing as heart disease. Instead there are many separate heart ailments, or combinations of them. It is something like that with alcoholism. Therefore we did not wish to get in wrong with the medical profession by pronouncing alcoholism a disease entity. Therefore we always called it an illness, or a malady—a far safer term for us to use.”[74]

    Bill W. publicly denounces ever to have called alcoholism a disease……safer to call it a malady or illness. I HAVE NO PROBLEM STATING it to be a DISEASE if it were so. In the DSM IV & AMA concur; why would I define it falsely, as AA members do.

    I believe this is enough for you for one day aside from the fact you are acting like a “Dry Drunk”, which I will let you do your second assignment on your own. Hint you.

    Before I bid ado, I feel the need to remind you that this is, “Stop13steppinaa”. Not, I’m better than you and so grandiose and intellectual I can change your mind and negative experience blog.


  27. yea, I think no one should go to college football games because what happened with Pinn State. No one should go to church either. Actually no one should go anywhere because of sexual issues that have been around since life started. The only one needing to take their meds is the confussed person who is truly miss-informed about LIFE and started this post. infact talking about spewing crap “ANTI” next time you get a good case of diarrhea just dont go to the bathroom. Then i want one of you to say you still have power. Some things we are powerless over and AA helps alot of people recover from the disease of alcoholism. O-yea it upsets you to call it a disease Im sorry I hope I didnt make you upset.


    1. hooper- this blog is to help people who have been 13 stepped or sexually harassed. Period! We are not powerless. Just read a Tony Robbins book, a man who is mildly successful. Imagine Tony reading the BB and taking it seriously. AA has never done any research nor has it any real stats. I can tell you from the inside watching the people who come and go and never return, the success rate is low in AA. ANd really over the last 10 years AA members have become even more rigid and judgmental and mean. Meaning they send nice people running.

      No one is sending in mass numbers court ordered sex offenders and violent criminals to Football games. Regular people are going there willingly. Right? Right.

      Now let’s address the many older men members and some older women members of AA and NA who prey constantly on new young vulnerable members. Sexually. This is morally criminal. If a therapist sexually hit on their patient it is now a crime in the USA.

      BTW I started this post. I dont take any medication and I don’t need any. I am lucky . Many ex AA members need something and in fact many have killed themselves because people who are like you play Dr and tell they they are not sober if they take medication. WTF happened to its none of your BUSINESS!!! PLaying Dr , if you give medical advice you can be sued. People are beginning to realize this fact and this is coming.

      Yes I am powerless over the huge 20 feet waves in Hawaii on it’s North Shore, but famous surfers use that power , are not afraid of it and ride the wave using the power to enhance their sport.

      It’s not a disease. No one called it that when I got sober. They called it a “spiritual Maladay” What crap. Anyway
      drinking to much is a behavior. Is cancer a self inflic disease? NO! Grow Up….and go back to your pro AA blogs


  28. Carolyn- Did she really say that? Her or the therapist? I would be interested in knowing any rationale that she gave. Even though AA officially does say that is not their position, it is quite a common attitude among 12 steppers to be against professional therapy. The GSO allows sponsors and other members to spew this crap, even after acknowledging it is a quite common attitude among 12 steppers to the point of telling people not to take there meds.


    1. Anti,
      Yes, she did say that and then refused to sit at the same table or utter a word to me. She said she got over her trauma by crying for 15 minutes and she was better! Knowing her (sober 10 yrs) and her husband (felon-sober 15 yrs) and the dysfunctional lives they led (she was a control freak and he a sex addict-one of my worst offenders), I knew didn’t want what they had.


  29. Alexw,

    I was very surprised that someone in AA actually recommended you get outside help; that was very noble and uncharacteristic of AA members (they have all the answers or at least a slogan to shut you up “It is Was It Is” or “Let Go Let God” has the same effect! I and many others have had the exact opposite experience. I had a sponsor ditch me because I sought therapy. Most sponsors fling slogans at a member, because they do not have the education needed to dispense therapeutic/helpful advice-they can’t fix their own life let-a-lone someone else’s. Then you have the know-it-alls with maybe a high school education insisting you make life altering changes, that they themselves are frightened to implement.

    I finally settled my drinking problem, within myself, once I ascertained why I drank. It was to deal with the pain from childhood trauma. I needed a licensed Therapist to accomplish that. Not a egotistical brow beating sponsor whom lifted their ego by putting others down. The only aspect a sponsor is qualified to do is take you through the steps (which I believe are harmful; all negative and with out affirmations to bring you out of bitter despair after you are done ripping your mind and soul apart-there should be a step to put one together more completely afterwards)!

    A common “Phenomenon” of an AA member who have diligently done the steps, communicated regularly with their sponsor and immersed themselves into the meetings is……..unhappiness, depression, lower self esteem etc. How could it be any other way when one is stripped of their own identity/individualism, sloganized and constantly brow beaten (I could never do one thing my sponsor or group approved)? Incidentally, I am still waiting to see ONE member with time , that is HAPPY, JOYOUS AND FREE. I have encountered so many unhappy people whose only joy out of a meeting is the gossiping-AGAIN NOT VERY THERAPEUTIC! My therapist mentioned over and over again of the back sliding of our progress and the increased ill-effect AA had on me psychologically; cessation of these meeting were a must. I did and am that much better for it. I now try to fill my life with healthy people I actually want to spend time with and not thrown into a room together to have at it.

    NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE, then YOU LABEL YOURSELF “ALCOHOLIC”, then you chant how POWERLESS YOU ARE followed by a DRUNK-A-LOG and then SPILL OUT all the NEGATIVE CRAP you can think of about yourself to a table of complete strangers. If a therapist did this; their licensed would be revoked!!

    I suggest you find a therapist that deals with EMDR (it has worked beautifully for me-it’s not fun and games, however you get to the root of your core issues and in my case VIOLA: I know why I drank). I drank not because it’s a “Disease” (which is still in debate-1960 Bill W. stated that Alcoholism is NOT a disease……{American Medical Association, Wikipedia Encyclopedia} or because I had an “Allergy”; I drank so I didn’t have to feel the pain associated with severe childhood trauma; THE END. No more AA meetings with the most sickly conglomerated group of people with the worst uneducated advice to serious situations. I go to therapy (which my sponsor said, “It’s her or Therapists”-ohhhhhhhhhhhh my little tree squirrel I will take true hard ground breaking and Freudian tested help, not your fortune cookie advice. Best of luck to you.


  30. Hi Massive, thanks for acknowledging my message so quickly.

    On your advice, I’ve already had a look at smart in the UK, which is where I’m based and will follow this up and make some enquiries.

    Only one person in AA suggested that I might not be an alcoholic. That was back in my first year. I was too afraid to even contemplate what he was saying at the time incase I had a drink.

    But the more I think about it, the more I am starting to wonder if he had a point. I recognise that I have a problem with alcohol and its best to avoid it if I can, but I don’t know if working the steps are really helping anymore. The “big book” suggests going out and trying some more controlled drinking, but I’m over that. Drink isn’t my problem, its my other problems that I want to address and I’m not entirely convinced that a spiritual solution is the answer.

    I could go on, but have to get ready for work.

    Speak soon, Alex


    1. Alexw- yes I see. Having been a thoroughly immersed AA member for years I realized when I was 6 years sober that working the steps over and over again is crazy. ALthough I did. I see now there are many more intelligent ways to grow once one has stopped drinking.

      Now many decades have passed and … I see there are many more options then AA yet no one in the media gives these options free press. Too BAD really.

      ANother idea Hams Harm Reduction Network might be interesting to you. Kenneth ANderson also has a blogtalk radio show weekly. I have learned alot here and think our court system should offer this for any first timer DUI as well as anyone who is showing signs that they might not have a huge addiction problem.

      Yes maybe you are not. But in Smart you don’t call yourself an alcoholic anyway. Thanks for writing.


      1. Alex- also I did not have the same experience as some – In the early years no one really went to therapy and we just worked the steps over and over again studying the literature. But when I moved to LA (1983) everyone was going to therapy. I was afraid to go.
        Not until I was 15 years sober and had my first child did I go. Then I saw huge flaws in the AA way. Many of us were really doing deep work out of AA and it was what was happening . Oprah and all that .

        SO I did years of therapy and rage work and didn’t believe in many AA beliefs systems after that and yet still I drank the koolaid about other AA stuff. This I find embarrassing but of well. I was dumb. Now Im not.
        Now Im empowered .

        Sorry Im so tired I cant write anymore. Been crazy busy.


  31. AlexW – welcome!

    Really great genuine post. I want to say that I attend Smart Recovery when I need it. There are face to face meetings in most cities now. They believe in empowering the individual and teaching us life skills. http://www.smartrecovery.org PLease know that your gut is right about all that you wrote here.

    You might want to check out http://www.leavingaa.com for many who have left happily seeking a more mentally healthful way of growing.

    I will write more…gotta run be back in a bit.


  32. Not sure whether this is the right forum for me to write about this but I’ll air it here anyway, if anyone can re-direct me that would be great.

    I’ve been attending AA since Dec 2007 and barring a week long relapse in May 2009, have managed to stay sober the whole time.

    I really like what Caroline said about AA “not supporting member’s mental well being by promoting empowerment, individualism, goal setting..” and would like to find out more about this if there’s such a programme that does.

    I’ve become disillousioned with AA recently after looking at the bigger picture of what I’ve achieved since my first meeting. Sure, I’ve learnt quite alot about myself, life and a few other things. But the fact is, I’m on the highest dose of anti depressants ever, continue to take anxiety medication and am on the lowest salary I’ve ever been on also.

    I’m 31 years old and at a critical stage in life where I need to learn and better myself, earn better money etc so that I can start to plan for my future. When I call for other member’s guidance in this area, all I get is “it takes time, be patient” “you’re impetuous if you dont mind me saying” “you are where you’re meant to be” etc etc and I get fed up with it. These “words of wisdom” are coming from people who have achieved very little in life and all have menial jobs. Whilst they’ve been a great support to me, they all – despite many years of recovery between them (one 20 years plus, another 16 years and the other 6 years) still have really apparent mental health problems when I meet them in person and give me absolutely no hope for the future. To make matters worse, my confidence is very low in the workplace – which I wouldnt expect for someone that’s been “in recovery” for four years. In a desperate attempt to get into a better place emotionally, I’ve tried various hypnosis cd’s and counselling while I work out a better long term solution.

    I also started seeing someone outside the rooms for 3 months this year which came to an abrupt end when my rejection and abandonment issues surfaced. This is something I’m used to in previous relationships and I’m working on these things seperately now, but I was shocked at how quickly my world fell apart. I had myself to blame, because things came to a head at a festival where my phone battery died for two days and I couldnt speak to my sponsor or support network. It really left me feeling imbarrassed and the most dependant person on the planet. We are taught in the rooms that we can become more independent if we have a dependance on God, but what the f***’s he going to do about it when I havent resolved the problems myself? AA suggests getting outside help, which I do. But my very own sponsor said that he was worried about me for looking at my abandonment issues and that I should stop “digging” and have some faith in the programme. Whenever I get outside help I always feel like I have to hide it for fear of judgement that I’m “not working my programme hard enough” or something. I despair


  33. carolyn- Um, Bill W. was a womanizing acid tripping Ouija board brandishing prophet. Yet died sober. I guess one can’t take anti depressants, however, acid is perfectly fine if licked from the navel of your good friend’s wife.

    on the floor laughing!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  34. AA is the only “support program” that doesn’t support their own member’s mental well being by promoting empowerment, individualism, goal setting etc. Virtually, anything that would aide an individual to a better life and higher self esteem. I know celebrities flock to Tony Robbins, because he teaches such things and the testimonials are plentiful. AA’s testimonials. Um, Bill W. was a womanizing acid tripping Ouija board brandishing prophet. Yet died sober. I guess one can’t take anti depressants, however, acid is perfectly fine if licked from the navel of your good friend’s wife.


  35. I DO NOT need dstone.
    You commented earlier that you would stick around for those who wished to respond concerning your extreme gratitude towards AA and the limited amount of happiness, self worth, knowledge and freedom; AA so generously allows you to possess. I don’t need my email address exposed to AA members who wish to convert or love bomb me daily. I’ll pass, thanks anyway. Have a great day, that is, if it’s approved by your sponsor; while you’re asking see what he/she says about paying it forward.


  36. Truly everyone who reads this… I should not be writing this stuff about AA even though it is good. I love AA, love going to meetings to see my friends and im doing my part to try and keep it strong and healthy. one day we might have a family member who are about to kill themselves because they are in the grips of alcohol addiction. this is my story. I will give all of you a chance to say something to me good or bad and then I must erase what I have written. I need to respect the traditions of AA. It is my feeling and my right to say… GOD Love you 🙂 and just in case no one has told you they love you today; dstone Loves you 🙂 🙂 🙂


    1. I hope everyone knows about Smart REcovery, SOS, Women FOR Sobriety, OnTrack & Beyond, Amy Lee Coy, Stanton Peele, Rational Recovery and the that drinking too much alcohol IS NOT A DISEASE. Its a behavior.


  37. Gee, Massive.

    When I hear that you are on a “dry drunk,” I know that the person making the accusation has run out of ammunition and stooped to the AA equivalent of “Nya nya nya nya nya.”

    God loves me so much that She separated me from AA and bullies like dstone.

    And She taught me how to spell “boundary.”


    1. Lucy- i know. I guess they ar emad that I left AA and that Im happy and still sober. Crazy for anyone to really think you need to go to metings forever.

      That’s the part that I really see as culty and ridiculous. As Ilse said, I must be a unicorn now. LOL


      1. 🙂 Good luck everyone! we are all on our own journeys and i certainly dont know it ALL. Maybe I said some things that can be helpful to some even though it might not apply to others. And massive I dont speak for AA so dont say that “they are mad you left AA”. I said it. A cult that helps others is one I want to be a part of. I did not mean to sound like a bullie maybe I need to think a little more about what I write. Im glad you are happy Massive I am happy most days but some I stuggle with. (rigorous honesty) some are sicker than others right. I need to live and let live. Its a beautiful Tuesday here In Charlotte and I got an Interview for a job!!! If you knew me this would never be possible without AA. Adhering to the traditions of AA I really need not continue to post on this site. I forgot ooops! AA works and the world sould be very greatful that AA is alive and well. If you are alone and have drinking issues the hand of AA is there just like It was for Massive. o-yea Massive maybe those freaky people at the convention were there so that you could teach you son what he needs to be careful with in his life. you got a chance to be a strong wise father out of a negitive experiance… TOO COOL! again Good luck everyone 🙂


      2. No one cares that I left. Well maybe a few good friends miss me there. I stood up for alot of good principles that Are against AA culty crap and spoke the truth.
        I dont know why you are sending us love bombing when you don’t know us but at least you are not a bad troll.
        Just know that AA is not what it appears to be in some places. Many Predators are targeting AA meetings to take advantage.

        PLease advise all members about this. judges and Lawyers are plea bargaining 3rd level sex offenders and violent criminals to AA like AA is a professional setting as we know it is nothing of the kind. Also if you want our Make Meetings Safer Pamphlet please let me know and I can put the pdf up here as well for you to print and use.



  38. Dstone,
    Wow, You are all over the place. On September 16, 2011, you stated to Massive that, “You love AA, but it’s not for everyone. God Loves You “.
    Then you comeback on October 30, 2011 stating that you are not a BB thumper, that you take what you want from AA and leave the rest (so you are not completely happy or willing to go to any lengths). You love this and that, yet want Violet to gag because she questions and doesn’t believe in AA or how you can determine what God thinks (huge no-no in AA & praying).

    Let’s take a look at “DRY DRUNK”, which you claim Massive to be and that she has absolutely no qualifications whatsoever to declare AA dysfunctional and unhelpful after she put her heart into it for 36 years. I believe she is an astute authority of AA and how it works….beyond chapter 5!

    Wikipedia didn’t have a definition for “Dry Drunk” so they referred readers to AA’s big book which defines a dry alcoholic as: a colloquial expression which describes an alcoholic (you) who no longer drinks (you) but maintains the same behavior patterns of an Alcoholic (hum-you-proof in prior posts alone)”. Also, “As being restless (is that why you are checking out this site?), irritable (angry that Massive and others have been successful without AA & you are starting to question it) & discontented (obviously not happy-you are here screaming and gripping about non AAer’s, sex addicts etc)”. Then Alcoholic Anonymous Big Book definition goes on to state other behavioral traits of a “Dry Drunk”. According to the Big Book of AA (includes you) other traits are, “Anger (again you came here looking for a fight), resentment (includes anger, overdue amends-remember if you don’t get rid of it your soul will rot), Grandiosity (you have sponsored 8 men whom have better lives in your estimation and created in the image of you, Going to be a GSI, have helped 3rd world countries and will this summer, help the homeless etc-like you have the cornerstone on charity-remeber a good Alcoholic helps and doesn’t brag about it), Impulsivity (if you truly thought this through-you would realize what a betrayal it is to AA and your group to even google anti-AA sites and again grandiose that your word would actually halt our efforts and follow you like the Pied Piper), Judgmental (aside from taking Massive’s inventory, no explanation needed) and of course the big H.A.L.T.” is mentioned.

    That Definition isn’t by the AMA or DSM IV, but your very own BIBLE the Big Book of AA, cited from Wikipedia.

    In summary DSTONE, (according to your medical dictionary AA’s BB you are a stoned, aridly speaking).
    Also, “Dry Drunk” isn’t a recognized condition and if it were, by AA definition even infants would be considered “Dry Drunks”. I believe AA members like to have that phrase as part of their repertoire for SHAMING a member who is out of line. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DSTONE, we don’t drink, we are happy, we don’t have to break people down to build our selves up and we are ALIVE AND WELL AND THAT PISSES YOU ALL OFF. But don’t get to mad, because then you a DA TA TA DA………a “DRY DRUNK” appears. Lots of luck


    1. If we all did good deeds and didnt tell people who whould know what to do? I have gone and done wonderful things and it makes me feel soooo gooood I want to share it with the world. I did these things because others told me about their experiances. I would be un-productive if the word didnt share about their good doings. keeping things a secret especially if they make you feel good and it helps others “pay it forward” does not sound productive. your thoughts are differant than mine and thats cool. I do agree with you that there is also a boundry that I need to keep my ego in check… If you dont feel like you putting down the thing that helped you for many years is not a negitive dry drunk action than just throw it in the mintal trash. i have been wrong before.


    2. this is too insane for me.. I never said I want her to gag she said that. I just said I love her more if she was gagging. I love people more when they are at the worst. Im just that way. Hell I thought Massive was a guy. There is alot of miss-understanding on here. too funny and yes I am usaully all over the place. my bad on anything thats made you definsive. I just love AA and wanted to share that. you seem to know alot about STUFF and you seem very book smart. I never had good book smarts but the people that know me would say I have strong common since. lol… what ever that is 🙂


  39. Ah the old dry drunk bit! For those of you who don’t know, a dry drunk is anyone who gets sober, or stays sober without AA. They dismiss your sobriety and pronounce themselves spiritually superior with two simple words “Dry Drunk”.


  40. I was thinking… Name one state, city, work place, school, sporting event, mall, church, religion, race, sex male/female, club, bar or any other place there are humans that there isnt people who have sexual boundry problems and I will continue to post on this site. otherwise, I will consider Massive a DRY DRUNK because thats what happens to Alcoholics who quit drinking and get pissed off at something that saved there lives. sorry you had a poor moment in time with AA but you will have them in the areas listed above too. Please do yourself a favor and take care of your dis-ease and get the help you need to bring back these positive promises in your life. this is nothing but a negitive cest pool. the things that bother us most is usually what we see in ourselves. for the people on here that has not been to AA you just dont understand our language or what happens in this wonerful thing called AA. If you fell like you need to coment than you are blind to what you say. AA rocks and sounds like It could use a member like Massive to come back and help others heal from a seemingly hope-less state of being. o-yea and God LOVES you sooooo much everyone. Peace out.


    1. dstone- You know you are being a total AA jerk by saying “I will consider Massive a DRY DRUNK because thats what happens to Alcoholics who quit drinking and get pissed off at something that saved there lives.

      There is no such thing. Its just another stupid , made up word for AA’ers who believe that a 1936 archaic book, with no research, no backing in science or statistics can make a JUDGEMENT like you are doing.

      Do you even hear how judgmental you are and that you have seriously crossed a boundary? Or do you have none, like 80% of AA members.

      I am going to repost what one young woman wrote 18 months ago when I first started this blog about 13 stepping. I’ll be back~~~~The Terminator


      1. I guess I will be investigating Charlotte Y Pp AA. There was a rape at ICYPAA in SAN Fran in Sept 2011 even though they had serious security . There should never be a rape at an AA YP event. There should be a safety booth at every event.


    2. And one more thing, AA members are giving medical advice all the time. Members have killed themselves listening to this stupid AA members act like Doctors. AA members have no business telling someone weather they can take an aspirin, a pain pill or a pysch med.


  41. I Love AA and have a host of wonderful friends who are sober. if its not for you, cool. Some people hook up and some dont. There are sick people everywhere and there are healthy one too. I am trying to be healthy and I love AA. In sobriety I have found a wonderful wife and have a good life. I love AA. Its not for everyone. God Loves You 🙂


    1. Dstone-

      Welcome. It’s great that you love AA. I once did too. But then I became a GSR, I brought my son to a supposedly young persons meeting and it was crawling with Predatory middle aged men all puffing away on their cigarettes and not practicing too many principals like I saw in 1975. I saw a young woman age 23 who was sobbing from being thirteen stepped and Began a journey that I will gladly share with you my letter telling the whole horrible story of me seeing through all the bullshit about AA and its literature, faulty steps, traditions and concepts. I know them all. I was in AA for 36 years.

      I started with http://www.orange-papers.org


      and then finally my own path. i’ll send you my letter if you write to me at makeaasafer@gmail.com

      Half of the traditions are lies now. Half of the preamble is bullshit. Let’s discuss. Chapter 5 is a joke. They are stating things as though they are facts. AA has never spent a dime on any research.

      REad Chapter 5 with an open mind or listen to my radio show on http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery where I carefully rip it apart. Trust me…I was once a Big Book thumping fool too. Sorry. I hope you don’t waste 36 years in AA like I did.


      1. Its hard for me to believe you feel like you wasted 36 years in AA. you must have loved it to go that long and it brought you to this day. I am not a big book thumper. I take some of what the Big book teaches and I leave the rest. Some of it is a joke and some for it is good stuff. I took my daughter to a confrence last night and there was no issues. Charlotte AA rocks!!! It is so much fun!!! Because of AA I have been to Congo in cental Africa to build to build a school for children. I am going to Haiti in Feb of this year to help. I do a 50 mile walk each year to raise money for people with MS. I have volunteered to help homeless people for a long time now. I sponsor eight wonderful guys who have got their lives back. I have also been a GSR. Maybe one day I will go on with my life too but tonight i get to give my sponsor his 20 year chip!!! I LOVE IT!!! I hate cig smoking like you do. that shit suchs for people. I quite in sobriety in 2002. That would be really cool if you went back to AA after all these years and became a small part of the change you want to be in the world. But you know better than me its not for everyone. Take it easy Massive and God Loves you 🙂 or maybe God does not love you 😦 or maybe there is no God 😦 or maybe we are all our own Gods 🙂 or maybe GOD is ALL. the Good and the Bad. OK i know im a little weird… I blew all my good brain cells on drinking and drugs…lol


    2. gag. how do *you* know who god loves? seriously. massive you have an awesome heart. just reading yer reply to dstone. o, trying to be like massive, dstone, come on. i am sure yer smarter than this. actually, i think i am gagging, as i usta sound *just* like you.


      1. I LOVE you Violet 🙂 Is that better. I love you even more when you are [snip]. Just kidding. I still love AA and its not for everyone. Its All good. o-yea… God Loves you… well my Spiritual concept of God does. Maybe I am God? I bet If [snip] I am a good guy with a good heart like Massive.


  42. Lengend,
    I don’t know about the Mars comment; they thought it’s composition was completely different a decade ago. Why should people stay home so they don’t get harmed? Why can’t we uphold the law and put these criminals away instead of banning innocent people from known harmful places? Why not make the harmful places safe? Why can’t AA and the Churches follow the laws that govern our rights as United States citizens? Why can AA make up their own laws “The Traditions” and not be held accountable for their actions or members? If you haven’t noticed we citizens of the United States have Civil Rights, Human Rights, Political Rights, Bill of Rights and the Amendments to protect us from such “Harm” you have stated is everywhere. It is simple for AA: They make a safety statement at the beginning of the meeting and offer security for the members, since the Courts are ordering criminals to AA. Just like when drunk driving became an overwhelming problem; lawmakers made it a felony to drive drunk; not tell the population “It’s the weekend watch out for drunks or stay home”. No, they made it a felony to drive under the influence which carries consequences. AA meetings have long been known to have sexual predators in the rooms; reports have proven that. Why should a person be exposed to a recognized preventable crime? Sounds to me we are kicking sand around in your predatory playground.


  43. I agree that having safety readings before a meeting is a start, but it’s not enough. That should have been done long ago, within the first week that the GSO became aware of the problem. I personally think that anyone who wants to sponsor someone should have the willingness to submit to a background check and have to take a “class” on sponsorship educating them on do’s and dont’s (including spiritual abuse and control issues). Absolutely no one with a felony background being able to become a sponsor. Also, a safety representetive should be in place at each meeting. How hard is that? They already have a secretary, treasurer, a chair, and someone making the coffee.

    It’s laughable when I think about it. Let’s see, a sponsor should have 1 year sobriety and have worked the steps, BUT if “your a sexual deviant that’s OK, we can’t advise on that. EVEN THOUGH, we’ve had reports since (at least) 2001 that there a groups where people are getting taken advantage of”.

    AA’s say “but those are our traditions, this might scare some people, how can I be sober there?”.

    How does it help you stay sober knowing that the precious program doesn’t give a rats ass that some people that come to groups for help get hurt?

    How about the people that are abused? How scared do you think they are? How do they stay sober?


  44. Sally- EVen though Bill Wilson in the literature as Bill see’s it says that NY GSO Office & the Board should always be there for any group or person who needs help with anything. But AA has gotten weirder & stranger over the years inviting every sick Predator into the rooms, or is it that Bill W was such a predator and he got away with sexual harassing so many woman that it became the pervasive way of AA, Predators knew about AA for years…

    Sue- great idea. In the women’s meeting I use to go to they read a safety statement at the beginning after the Preamble. There are many meetings doing that although not nearly enough.


  45. Why not a brief disclosure at the beginning of the meeting; informing the vulnerable new commer, creating awareness and causing the predator to think twice. Of course that would mean taking responsibility and admitting the problem that exist.


  46. The problem is that there is no one officially charge at 12 step meetings and no one is turned away, despite their behavior. If they were regulated by someone qualified to “keep people in line” and make sure that long john silver kept his winkie in his pants then it would be fine. Put felons in with vulnerable people that are desperate and confused and it’s a recipe for disaster. It doesn’t take long for a predator to realize that he/she can get away with harassment and abuse because no one is watching and no one gives their last name.


  47. The only place you will not find sick people is on the Planet Mars. The reason there is so much abuse around the world is because of people no matter what association or groups your from. Even the Pope had to apologize for the behavior of priests around the world. Does that mean that you should never get married in a church, or baptize your child? If that’s the case so be it. If you still go to church for funerals, first communions or willingly accepted the body of Christ in your mouth your a phony. Stop going out of your house because some one is bound to take advantage of you some where. The only people that will take advantage of you here is some one giving seminars so he can take your money. Again your being taken advantage of. What a bunch of bull.


    1. Legend- I disagree. AA is a microcosm of lots of low self esteem individuals who are at one of the lowest places in their lives. They also don’t know who the courts are sending to AA right now including these 3rd level sex offenders and violent criminals.

      You sound like a koolaid drinking AA fool. GO read the orange papers and stinkin thinkin.


    2. You are absolutely right, there are many sick people in this world and you can’t avoid them all. Taking from the teachings of Bill Wilson and his followers you should just stay away from any AA meetings that you are not comfortable with and find another one that fits you. This is only common sense, like staying out of the known bad sections of town.

      Every town has a notoriously bad section that everyone knows about. If you haven’t been to them, you really should go, especially where drinking happens. This is part of the pool that AA searches looking for prospects for Alcoholics Anonymous and is heavily searched for by some members of the Bill Wilson faith because they have found a Spiritual path that says they should. They try to get prospects to go to Church basements, usually after hours to repent their sins. This is a noble cause and if people are resistant, the court system will send them to these wonderful halls os Spiritual enlightenment. The transformation that these individuals go through once they walk through the door and leave their mind behind is amazing. People that once were rapists and violent criminals change dramatically, they become Anonymous and other members of the fellowship protect their Anonymity for them.

      Sometimes people in the fellowship over step what they believe to be the hand of their Spiritual Higher Power and cover up the actions of deviant members of society because Bill Wilson told them in his very welly written books that they have an obligation to. This just happened in Lewiston Maine where a very good upstanding member of AA named Bob Ryder killed Danita Brown and he told his AA Sponsor Floyd Nadeau and even showed her the body. Being an upstanding AA member Floyd Floyd Nadeau didn’t go to the police right away, he talked to his upstanding AA sponsor and after two and a half weeks and finally went to the police. I realize this doesn’t happen in every AA group and most likely has never happened in your AA group that might have been held in a Church basement. I am sure that if the Anonymous members of the AA groups in Maine who knew about this tragedy through closed AA meetings and personal conversations with other AA members or sponsors show up in your AA groups you will know about it and quickly change your AA group as suggested. And don’t worry if your teenage son or daughter goes to these meetings and they are sexually attacked or harassed by the Anonymous sex offenders and predators that may walk through those doors it will be quickly reported to the police and stopped.

      Speaking of Churches and AA members did you hear about the parking lot of West University Church of Christ at 3407 Bissonnet St, Houston, TX 77005 on July 25,2011 where after leaving an AA meeting the married 28 year old Amanda Leann Kueht was found in the back seat of her care with a partially unclothed 16 year old boy that she took to the meeting because she was her therapist? The West University police caught her, I am sure that none of the good AA members of the fellowship knew anything about it and they would have come forward if they did. It really is good to know that AA meetings are one of the safest places to let your teenager go because the fellowship takes quick action and calls the police every time they see or hear about sexual predators or murders in their meetings.


      1. I agree. I want to add that I know some very “nice “Meetings Like The Pacific Group and Rodeo in West wood where many Sexual Predators are and I have been told rapists as well. Just because they are dressed up all pretty in suits and grinning shaking your hand. Do not for one second trust you are safe there. I met a woman who was followed home from the Pacific Group in West Los Angeles and raped 6 years ago. She did go to the police and did file charges!


    3. The thing is, that when a person addicted to drugs and/or alcohol enters these meetings for refuge and there are a lot of good people willing to help them..However, take it from one who knows, there are Predators sitting there, day after day, week after week, after month after year…Just waiting for an opportunity to satisfy their psychopathic drives. They may not have a conscience, but they intellectually know what they are doing and they really can hurt and injure people. Yes, we can all go out the door and get hurt, but I think this movement or board is about stopping the “safe haven” these predators and psycho’s have found in this Program and creating a balance, Throughout human history and society, this is how good human being operate to protect others from evil as much as possible once they identify it. Based on your statement, we should just have KNOWN pedophile kindergarden teachers as we can’t just walk out of the door and avoid evil or protect the kids, so according to your logic in this analogy we should do NOTHING? There are smarter people than you and that is why we are here. We use our heads and do give a damn and we are not passive and fail to act, what would of happened in WWII if we had leaders with your mentality? DO NOTHING INT HE FACE OF EVIL AND DO NOT FIGHT AS IT IS INEVITABLE ACCORDING TO YOU? Thank God for the marines, law enforcement and all of my family that served in Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan and every where else we were needed. Grandparents in WW@, Purple heart marines..the list goes on. You are free to post on this board because there are people with more balls, intelligence and everything else you cannot fathom. So, we will keep on protecting people in AA from Predators, you can “walk out your door and be a victim” we will be here to help you and your loved ones when they are attacked, hopefully we do not get passive like you and more people get hurt. This is the way life is, the lazy ones like you talk shit and do nothing, the people that care? Create a safer worold. Get to the library or a school and read your history. You did not win the birth lottery, a lot of brave men faught and died for your freedom and your right to sit and be lazy and post a bullshit lazy post. Learn from them, get your self going and make a difference in the world. I honor them, so do many others. The lazy? Sit and post BS. Peoples lives are on the line, if you do not get it? Then? Shut the F up and go lie on your lazy ass and stop bothering us, We have work to do.


  48. I re-read my post and I thought it could be taken as a slight against Gretal. Gretal, please do not take it that way, please. If I could have re-wrote it I would have.
    My heart goes out to you. It was very brave for you to come on here and share. I hope I did not get in the way of this in any way.
    If I did I apologize.


  49. Can I have a slightly different opinion. I think all Dick is saying is if you came in to AA to help yourself you will probably find this. If for some reason you find hanging out in the fellowship, going to parties, dances, dating and so forth is what you want to do you will find that to.
    Women and men are hawking in AA, duh it was part of the bar hopping social scene, behaviors are hard stop for some.
    This idea because some AA’er has 20 years that he is supposed to have a healthy lifestyle, maturity and some positive experience to model is just not to smart. That is like saying the guy in your graduating class that went to Harvard, works for a prestigious Law firm, has a wife and to kids and smiled a lot is not a child molester.
    If you are vulnerable then you are, this condition can be taken advantage of no matter where you are.
    Ya know it is no mistake that sexual abuse is a common nominator amongst many of us AA’ers or ex-AA.ers,
    We can get rid of AA and everything to do with AA (my thoughts sometimes) which will create a vacuum, we can fill this void with another “something” we all like and want and the predators will still come.
    I think what Massive id doing here is awesome and I really want her to succeed. I want the criminals out of AA. I would love for men and women to make better choices in the people they pick, I wish that we would listen to people in our lives that say leave that guy or gal alone they are sick and we don’t. We are to stubborn.
    Wherever people go for help they will run into others seeking help, whether online or a building. The key words here are “seeking help”.
    Be smart.


  50. Hi..I’ve been seeking out material on 13steppers. I’ve been around for 20 years but sober this time 9months.A lot of the reason for not staying in was because of stalkers and perditors. I recenty shared my place with a man,10 years sober. I was five minutes sober at the time and he magde a B-line for me. The love of my life had died 2months prior so I was vulnerable and thought sharing my place will help financially and he can help me with the programn. This man was N/A but I met him in AA. He was an ex-jail bird and new the programn page for page. He was good looking,charming, and in the beging told me everything I wanted to hear until he had me in his control. He would have a temper tantrum if I had an opinion, always right, contantly pigeon holed me caretaker, people pleaser, passive aggressive, manic, lunatic, and more. He wlays blunged cigarettes and always tried to undercut me. Told me he had 1,000 woman in a year and told me four women were after him in the fellowship. Ego, sense of entitlement, grandiose to the max. He told me HE had the goods. I had a long way to go and he was in group 2 and I was in group 1 which I have never heard of in the 20 years I’ve been around. I fell for it and after 4 months he managed to get me in the sack. I asked at the time “where are we going with this?’ and he said “we’ll talk later”. He then degraded me , called me names and moved in with another woman who apparently has 20 years. A true narssisistic, sociopath!
    I am very hurt, angry and can’t seem to get him out of my mind. I am 49 so its not about age. I didn’t bust over it but it has made me very disillusioned about AA and once again I don’t feel safe. I did retaliate sending him text messages and called him on his behaviour but he through it back and blamed me!! He also used the BB to justify his actions. I have read a lot here and I thank God for this site as I have been feeling crazy.
    Totally pathetic and degrading. Something needs to be done. AA is going down the tube. I am also in Australia so its the same here like everywhere.
    Kind regards


    1. Gretal,
      I am so sorry to hear this. Sadly to say it’s rampant in USA, and UK too. PLease check out stinkin-thinkin.com for more support and x-steppers.
      Makeaasafer@gmail.com is my email. I can ship you some pamphlets that you can hand out to all interested parties. Shake it up a bit.

      Have a business meeting and have discussion and vote on adding a safety statement at the beginning of the meeting. Thats what we did.
      I will send you what we say directly to your email.
      I will write more later. I was 13 stepped and taken more then once. I got sober at 18 and now I am 53. go to youtube….see my video AA puff pieces in the newspapers by Inwood 75. It tells my story a bit.


    2. If it makes you feel any better, I am on a mission to out a Psychopath and have had much success here. He is someone who commits the same acts you describe and does to people and talks and acts exactly as you speak of above. Even for your sake all the way over there, I will have more resolve to make him pay for what he has done. The thing they hate the most is being exposed. That is my A- JOB number one. I will never shut up about him until the day I die as if he does first I will still warn and help people in program. I taunted him the other day and told him ” this was his legacy after his 20 years”, This sociopath prides himself on the damage he has done over the years, so I make sure he knows that not only is he seen very clearly and will be outted now but forever! There are a lot of them in there. At the same time, there are good people like myself and other vulnerable people that need protection and the chance to recover. So, the effort continues to help others against these sick and disturbed individuals. And to hold them accountable. Never give up, do everything you can to be healthy and reclaim your life and then get out there and warn other women. It is empowering.


    3. http://www.lovefraud.com, http://www.psychopathfree.com and google psychopathy and sociopathy, but the first two web sites have many women and men recovering from this with support boards. There is also a great book, the title is a little misleading as it written by a women with a Masters Degree whose Father was murdered and then she spent 20 years helping victims of Cluster B personality Disorders, but it is one of the best books around as most are written explaining the psychopath only, this one also helps the victims, talks about what they go through and how to recover from these disturbed people – ” Women Who Love Psychopaths – Relationships of Inevitable Harm ” – Sandra Brown M.A.. Here is a link to Amazon where you can get it, I highly recommend this book for your healing. http://www.amazon.com/Women-Who-Love-Psychopaths-Relationships/dp/0984172807/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366385705&sr=8-1&keywords=women+who+love+psychopaths . Also google “The Sociopath Next Door” and read as much as you can about these non-humans. IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT OK? Feel free also to send a message to massive for my email and I will help you. Best. PS You can do it, he hurt you, but it you did not break him so you cannot fix his pathology. You must recover and know you did nothing wrong. There is a lot of help out here for you, please contact me and go to these links and get the first book, there are more. hugs.


  51. Dick B, The author of this blog has devoted years to AA, but you didn’t read enough to figure that out, did you? Your assumptions about her and her experiences are insulting, but they say a lot about you. Unlike you, she isn’t trying to profit from her experiences. Where’s your indignation Dick? You’re okay with that thirteenth-stepping and other abuses that occur in the rooms, aren’t you?


  52. Oh, Dick, for shame. How embarrassing for you, to show up on a blog dedicated to making AA safer, to make claims that those who complain about abuse in the program are misguided and need to see things YOUR way. I used to respect you–I’ve “been around” a while–but the more I see of your antics the more I realize that you are nothing more than a self-promoting huckster, sort of a cross between Bill W. and a cheesy televangelist.


  53. Predators in AA hide behind the anonymity that it provides and do not worry about people calling the police or news papers. The police often give a blind eye to the goings on in AA and newspapers receive a letter every year from the home office “suggesting” they not to write articles about them that would put them in controversy.

    The protection that AA provides is the governed by the “Twelve Steps and 12 Traditions” that was written in 1946 by William Griffith Wilson (aka Bill W) shortly after World War II ended on V-E Day May 8th 1945. The 12 Traditions are the framework for hiding corporate responsibility (Yes, AA is a registered Public Corporation) using secrecy and anonymity. No other Public Corporation would be allowed in today’s society to be able to hide like this without being heavily scrutinized by the press.

    Bill W spent his time during World War II (which started in September 1939) thinking up ways to protect the corporation that he started with the copyright of the “Big Book” in April of 1939, shortly before the end of “The Great Depression” in 1940. Bill W, the founder of the Public Corporation of AA, spent all of World War II thinking up ways to protect the corporate empire he was building as any stockbroker would. Stockbrokers caused a stock market crash in 1929 by using “leverage” (no money to back up thier trades). The kind of leverage used by stockbrokers in 1929 is illegal in the US at this time, because of public laws that were passed to protect the public from manipulations that stockbrokers used in 1929.

    One of the ways that Corporate AA protects itself is to teach its members to dismiss arguments against them by attacking the amount of time between the present and the “Sobriety Date” of the individual making these arguments. This thread is a prime example of the use of that technique of deception taught that by AA.

    Since I not going to follow the corporate policy of “Time” in sobriety or attendance of AA meetings, I will neither confirm or deny if I have a “Sobriety Date”, any AA attendance or previous use of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of Corporate AA. Coincidentally AA corporate policy allows me to do the by remaining “Anonymous”.

    (Did I mention that Bill W’s often published sobriety date (Dec. 11,1934) was about a year after Prohibition. Prohibition was ratified as the 18th Amendment to the US Constitution on Sept. 1, 1920 and repealed on Dec. 5, 1933.)


    1. Dick, thank you for your post. A trauma surgeon will do a life saving surgery and go home and have some wine. A police officer arrests one of these 13 Stepping idiots after tracking him ( as I DID call the police) and then has some beers with the guys. The examples go on and on…So what does their ” sobriety date” have to do with the VAST difference of “REAL CHARACTER” these professionals have and some loser sitting in an AA meeting asking you ” when is the last time you had a drink? I am a sexual predator, but I think I am better than you as I believe my own bullsh*t!’. I currently love going to AA and leading and sharing about this exact fact of life. People who get it are cool with, you should see the red and twisted faces of the DD 13 Steppers in there who think they are better than everyone else, as in HOW DARE I!?!?! LOL! aka…Tell them the truth. It is a Program of Honesty after all right? I am just doing my part * smiling*.


      1. panda2 great point. They brag about their “time” and yet so many have so many other un treated deeper issues. I have recently found out people lie about how much time they have. Especially the sexual predators. They are also laughing at the victims. However in North Carolina one sponsee didn’t take that lightly and murdered the punitive sexually predatory old-timer sponsor.


  54. Check out Dick’s narrative and see if you think it washes. To me it appears to have been made of whole cloth. Plus, his comment is a commercial. On my blog, I delete all comments that are commercials. If I’m not sure, I still don’t activate the links commercials invariably include.


  55. Ugh, Dick you use other people’s platforms to advertise your business to their audiences. I wonder if there is a step that helps with ethics.


    1. Dick B.,
      We are directly addressing 13 stepping, sexual Predators, financial scams, sponsorship abuse. All that and more, rape and murder.
      Yes we will express, expose all the lies that lie within the AA meeting , the Culture, NY World Service Office, Central Office in major cities and rehabs and treatment centers that are
      cooperating and aligning themselves with AA. W

      E know exactly what we are talking about. I personally have put thousands of hours in AA service.
      Sober and active for 3 decades. AA is an old dinosaur that needs to either grow or go.

      AA is allied with NAADD, with 90% of all rehabs and treatment centers advertising that they use the 12 steps. Half of traditions are outdated and an outlright lie.

      The first part of chapter 5 is a joke and equally untrue.

      I’m not drinking the coolaid anymore.
      go to http://www.orange-papers.com


      1. I realize this post is old but women prey on newcomers also. I know one in particular who has been in the program for years with varying results as far as maintaining her sobriety. She has had not one, not two, but three newcomers move in with her after starting relationships VERY quickly. Eventually the relationship ends & after she kicks the newcomers out of her home she does the same with meetings. What I mean is if she knows they have issues with their drivers license or vehicle insurance she will call the cops on them. This is to discourage them from coming back to “her” meetings. The point is women do this too.


      2. Brandy- Hi and Welcome! I agree wholeheartedly….about 20% of 13 stepping is done by woman by the reports I have received. I am open to hearing more details about where and who is been the victim. IN the film The 13th Step there are men who talk about this aspect of sexual predator behavior in AA.


    2. Dick, Dick, Dick…I’ve looked at your website. What you think AA is and what it really is are two completely different things. I do respect the extensive research you have done.

      You believe what you want to. I will too. You really lost me when you speak about Jesus and AA. Your meetings might be full of Jesus and goodness and all that. I think that is a program called “Celebrate Recovery.” Perhaps you should join. It seems to be more in line with your beliefs.

      And yes Sir, I am full of resentment for AA. It is not up to you judge how much effort anyone placed in the program nor how much anyone desired it to work for them. I found a false religion, a false God, and plenty of false prophets telling me I would die if I didn’t follow their suggestions. That is just the tip of my iceburg.

      Leave this nice lady (who is trying to do some good in the world) alone and stop trying to promote your own agenda. She isn’t trying to kill AA. She is trying to make it safer, accountable place for people who are seeking help.


      1. Jesus drank wine 🙂 But seriously…God and Jesus based principals are based in highly moral thinking. People with mental illness and personality disturbances in 12 Step Programs talk about ” JESUS” as if that is their “pass” to do wrong….No, I don’t think so it’s just the ramblings of mad men.


    3. Dear DickwithBallz,

      Or *she* you sexist, pedantic creepy old fuck. I disagree with you. I mean, I doubt you even believe the stuff you write and feel that you prolly only want to bate people; am I right on this? Your site is by and large the sickest and most pathetic I have seen. It is clear to me that you worship AA (mostly b/c you have not been in a situation to learn any other way due to your decided lack of sophistication…) and that you most likely have sobriety clout which means nothing as far as I am concerned. OK, to scrape a meaning together, here ya go: You are an idiot (cop wannabe type–prolly) who stayed sober. Woopitdidoooo, Buddy. With tons and rons a time on yer hands (why is this?) It is thus you’ve got yer super duper AA is the shit if you suck blog that you link in a tireless manner.

      I write about thirteen stepping and do so as I dealt with it for YEARS in AA. I was in AA from 21-37. Thank God I am out now. Thank fucking God I will not be sharing your breathing air your creepy douche. THe effort: commitments with creepy men in shitty cars, secretary of meeting, treasurer, answering the phone to idiotic drunk and non drunk peeps at 3 am , kinda a lot… Taking peeps to the hosp. YOure right, you loser cop wannabe, I hardly put a thing into the fuckdouche shame that it is.

      People of your pathetic, creeepfuck ilk, and I am sure I am not the first to tell you this, are the reason I ran outta that program. I needed to feel clean, finally. And AA made me feel sick and violated to my very core. But you’re right, I should pray for you and all your other control freak weirdo buddies and do so in the way that AA teaches it’s intelligent, aware, educated population to do so–in that way that results in nonthinking. Super Smart, right.

      Dick B., you cocksucking fuckjack, go fuck yer self. (Cuz I am totally certain nobody else wants to–friend of Bill’s or not!) Really, go screw.



      1. Violet- I am glad you get to say how you really feel here without some oldtimer who is a sexual Predator is talking down to you with all the AA rhetoric Bullshit psycho babble. I too was in AA as a 18-54 year old OMG…SO many old creeps would kiss me on the lips. I am sickened by this thought now.

        thanks violet. I’m sorry you spent so many years as well in the rooms.


      2. Jesus, I sound like I have rabies. You prolly know by know I think after posting. but really, after rereading this awhile later, i still feel the same way; however, I might choose to articulate myself a wee bit more civilized. I am so glad yer blogs are there now for ppl like us who will not have st (though I know soon it’ll be archived, etc.)


      3. Thank you Violet! This post is as ‘civilized’ as he deserves it to be. Good for you!
        Fuckjack…I’m stealing that one.


    4. Do you know how silly that sounds? A person has to have a mental and emotional tie to your insults for them to even work! You are too caught up in your own AA world to see outside it, you don’t have the ability to blow curses at people, you don’t have the witchcraft mumbo jumbo power to scare or insult others unless people give it to you. The people on this site aren’t going to give it to you. You are indeed powerless here.


      1. I meant that to Dick, I think it went in the wrong place. But how silly to try to attack people with stuff they don’t believe.


      2. Exactly B.C., ! But they think they know everything! LOL! They don’t have a drink and then start rambling about God and all of a sudden they think they are experts in morality, the world and psychiatric topics in terms of what is good for people…No, your not..Go get an education and get to a library and start reading ALLLL the books that are out there in the world as opposed to just one book and then think you know everything, YOU DON’T KNOW SH!T when you talk all honorary just because you sit in meetings and haven’t picked up alcohol. Lots of “meetings” go on in the real world every single day where business and politics and medicine are conducted….This is what makes the world actually work! I think they forget that. They think they have “discovered the meeting!” …No, its a bunch of out of control people , no offense to the nice people just trying to save and get their lives together, this is directed at the DD 13 Stepper know it all, who know nothing, idiots!


    1. Dear massive Attack,

      You should not hate 13th stepers; I think there is nothing wrong with newbees taking their mind of alcoholism, by spending time with a experienced member; sometimes they just need a good man to rest their weary head on. I mean waht do you think is going to cause more damage a cold beer in one hand or (snip) really give us expienced members a break,


      1. Rooney,
        I can’t believe you had the audacity to publish your criminal behavior on the web where it can, and believe me, will be traced back to you!!!!!! Your thinking and actions are far from disturbing; they are SOCIOPATHIC!!! Your PREDACEOUS BEHAVIOR, willingness to FLAUNT CRIMINAL ACTIVITY and then ask for concessions to continuing abusing/grooming “Newcomers” is APPREHENSIBLE!!! I’m suspect of your true motives for attending AA meetings from the start. They are, however, evident now. IT’S YOUR PREDATORIAL PLAY GROUND. I would be VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS WITH YOUR FUTURE ATTEMPTS TO GIVE YOUR HARD WIENER A RIDE with a “NEWBEE”; he/she just may be an undercover COP/VICE/DETECTIVE!!!!!!

        I have to thank you for outing yourself; soon we will have ONE LESS PREDATOR/CRIMINAL out or our AA meetings. Enjoy the short freedom you have; changing meetings won’t help. I have seen the FBI in action; they have your name, number,address and photo……..you will be a lot easier to find than Bin Laden!!!!!


        Thank you again Rooney for being so arrogant to publish your sick CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR; AA can rest assure you will be taken OUT. ENJOY YOUR FREE TIME!


      2. If it were my daughter I’d be pretty upset with someone taking advantage of her. Especially if it was at AA. Exactly what do you mean by “experienced members” (spelling corrected from your original quote)?

        What exactly do you think they are experienced at? Taking advantage of everyone they come in contact with that is vulnerable? If you are an experienced member of AA, you are the reason people should be warned.


      3. You are a very sick man and I am not sure even therapy would help you. You are of course, a predator and young women should stay as far away from you as possible. It is people like you who cause young people to run away from AA in droves. Clean up your act, do an inventory and get some therapy. We are called upon to become more responsible citizens. Step up!


      4. Police officers have a cold beer after they arrest people like you. Who is smarter and has more character? Just because you don’t have a drink doesn’t make you ANYTHING “Special” , just remember that. Just because you do not drink doesn’t mean you are not a mental patient, psychopath or just screwed up in general. I always laugh at creepy old timer men and women ( although there are some good people) that talk like this, what idiots! Can’t you see yourself? I can, so can many others.


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